Advice needed. I feel like a failure.

Snorkelshark

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NC
Thank you, minority2! Dr. Rosenoff was kind enough to speak with me about my tortoise, he also suggested to change the UV bulb, he said that they tend to lose potency after about 90 days. He also recommended a few changes but said that the husbandry didn’t sound bad and that it could honestly be anything at this point.

But I will be having my vet here send out a decal sample to rule out parasites.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
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I’m going to keep this as short as possible and I am open to all responses and suggestions.

I fell in love with sulcatas when I lived in Hawaii. I refused to own one until I had properly researched, considered and thought about long term impacts (I grew up with parrots so I already understood that these animals will probably outlive me and needed a plan in place to take care of them after I die)

5 years later, I bought my baby. I bought a massive tank, heat lamp, UV lamp, hides, bowls, every bedding material amazon had to offer. We measured humidity, adjusted our home thermostat to ensure it didn’t get too cold at night, invested in good light timers for the UV and heat lamp, built an outside run for daily grazing and sun soaking.

I feel like I did everything right (which I’m sure I didn’t, but I learned and adjusted) we all make mistakes when we are learning, right?

Anyway, tortellini seemed great. He arrived in July all bright eyed and adorable. He takes daily warm soaks and daily outdoor time. He eats a variety of greens, lettuces (but not iceberg) no fruits, hay, soaked pellets and lots of clover.

The past week I noticed that he was sleeping a lot more and eating a lot less. I upped his soaks, and checked my humidity. His belly got soft and today he is so lethargic that he won’t open his eyes.

He has no discharge, no eye bubbles, no runny nose. He appears completely normal, minus the soft shell. He was getting calcium sprinkles 2x a week on his greens.

I called my local exotics vet and she hasn’t called back yet. I feel so bad. I thought I was doing everything close enough to correct....and he was perfectly fine for the past few months! He even evacuated with us for the hurricane and spent the week in a fancy hotel being spoiled by the kitchen staff (who brought him up all the little greens left over from prep every day....and they used locally sourced items for their menu so I wasn’t concerned about pesticides or anything)

I even went so far as to stop and pay a lady $5 to pick her prickly cactus pads from her back yard....lovingly (though there was a bit of cursing involved) despined them, rinsed and cut them up for him.


Can someone deduce where I went wrong here. I’m certain he doesn’t have much time left, he is lethargic and refusing to open his eyes today and I’m still waiting on the vet to tell me when to bring him in.

Is there any hope that he will pull through and the vet will have some cure for this? I don’t know what happened and I’m so sad that I am responsible for his care and I failed him.

Sorry for the essay, thanks for listening :(


Hello and welcome. You are in the same boat as almost everyone who is new to keeping tortoises. Most people go online, read for hours, talk to a breeder or seller, and then go ahead and take the plunge. Here is the problem: We've been doing it wrong for about 3 decades, and most of the tortoise world, outside of this forum, hasn't caught on. Your crime is reading the wrong info and taking the wrong advice, but it is understandable because almost all of that wrong info is in agreement. Its all the same old wrong info. You are one of the lucky ones that found us. At least now you will have an idea of where you went wrong.

Here is some of what I see wrong from what you've shared:
  1. Tank is too small.
  2. Wrong UV source.
  3. Night and ambient temps too cool.
  4. Humidity a little on the low side.
Having said all of that, you did great with the daily soaks and sunning, and I don't think any of the above is the reason for his demise. @Markw84 explained very well what babies need to survive and thrive. Almost no breeder out there does it right. Hardly any of them. The source you bought from has a dismal reputation, as do some of the other large internet seller/brokers. Here is my best guess at what is going wrong, and it has nothing to do with you or the care you've offered. There is also nothing you, a vet, or anyone else can do about it. Let me guess: Your baby has been hovering around 50 grams since the time you got him and not growing much, right? Read this:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

Once this damage is done in their first few days and weeks of life, it cannot be undone. No amount of money or vet care or expert advice can fix their kidneys once they are damaged by chronic early dehydration. The only solution to this problem is to buy from the right source. Someone who keeps the babies warm, humid and hydrated. By contrast to that thread, here is how babies should be started:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Here is all the correct and up to date sulcata care advice all in one place. Mark already linked one of these, but I'll put it here too for convenience.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


I don't think anyone can save your baby at this stage, but at least we can help you understand what went wrong, and how to avoid this problem in the future.
 

Snorkelshark

New Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
26
Location (City and/or State)
NC
Hello and welcome. You are in the same boat as almost everyone who is new to keeping tortoises. Most people go online, read for hours, talk to a breeder or seller, and then go ahead and take the plunge. Here is the problem: We've been doing it wrong for about 3 decades, and most of the tortoise world, outside of this forum, hasn't caught on. Your crime is reading the wrong info and taking the wrong advice, but it is understandable because almost all of that wrong info is in agreement. Its all the same old wrong info. You are one of the lucky ones that found us. At least now you will have an idea of where you went wrong.

Here is some of what I see wrong from what you've shared:
  1. Tank is too small.
  2. Wrong UV source.
  3. Night and ambient temps too cool.
  4. Humidity a little on the low side.
Having said all of that, you did great with the daily soaks and sunning, and I don't think any of the above is the reason for his demise. @Markw84 explained very well what babies need to survive and thrive. Almost no breeder out there does it right. Hardly any of them. The source you bought from has a dismal reputation, as do some of the other large internet seller/brokers. Here is my best guess at what is going wrong, and it has nothing to do with you or the care you've offered. There is also nothing you, a vet, or anyone else can do about it. Let me guess: Your baby has been hovering around 50 grams since the time you got him and not growing much, right? Read this:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

Once this damage is done in their first few days and weeks of life, it cannot be undone. No amount of money or vet care or expert advice can fix their kidneys once they are damaged by chronic early dehydration. The only solution to this problem is to buy from the right source. Someone who keeps the babies warm, humid and hydrated. By contrast to that thread, here is how babies should be started:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Here is all the correct and up to date sulcata care advice all in one place. Mark already linked one of these, but I'll put it here too for convenience.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.79895/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/


I don't think anyone can save your baby at this stage, but at least we can help you understand what went wrong, and how to avoid this problem in the future.
Thank you! Yes, he has not grown at all since we got him. He is 63g now and wasn’t much less than that when we got him.

I appreciate the honesty and the insight from everyone here. I will be doing things much differently the next time, though I am still hoping he pulls through (because we love him and invested time into him)
 

ofarja89

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We had an issue with lethargic and bought a new uvb bulb x we also bought some uvb sensitive paper to check the levels x sure enough after a week my tort was right as rain again x turns out the previous bulb wasn't supplying any uv.... Even though it said on the box it was uvb...
 

Minority2

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Tortoise Hell
We had an issue with lethargic and bought a new uvb bulb x we also bought some uvb sensitive paper to check the levels x sure enough after a week my tort was right as rain again x turns out the previous bulb wasn't supplying any uv.... Even though it said on the box it was uvb...

Can you link and or show a picture of the product so we can see what brand to possibly watch out for in the future?
 

Snorkelshark

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He’s still clinging on today. I put out some Romaine for him last night before I went to bed, and it appears that he has eaten something (I meant to count the leaves so I could check) hopefully I’m hoping he makes a poop for me so I can get it sent out.
 

Snorkelshark

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Also, I wanted to thank each and every one of you that pointed out what I was doing wrong. I’m glad I found this forum and I certainly won’t be making the same mistakes twice.

Can I ask, whether it’s better to have digital thermometers or analog? I’ve always preferred analog because batteries etc.
 

JoesMum

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Also, I wanted to thank each and every one of you that pointed out what I was doing wrong. I’m glad I found this forum and I certainly won’t be making the same mistakes twice.

Can I ask, whether it’s better to have digital thermometers or analog? I’ve always preferred analog because batteries etc.

A digital temperature gun is the only way to measure temperatures accurately

Like this one
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermometer-Zanmax-Non-Contact-Temperature-Indication/dp/B07CJ1SJYX/
 

Snorkelshark

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drew54

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Ok. They’re not as expensive. The vet yesterday recommended one that was $200 and I got a little sticker shock.

So I don’t need thermometers in the set up for quick checking? Just use the gun then?

I use an ir gun and a waterproof shower hygrometer and thermometer.
IMG_0892.jpg
I place it right in the enclosure and it works very well. I've had no issues with it and it is waterproof.

I always check the floor temps everywhere with the ir gun though.
 

Minority2

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Ok. They’re not as expensive. The vet yesterday recommended one that was $200 and I got a little sticker shock.

So I don’t need thermometers in the set up for quick checking? Just use the gun then?

A dedicated thermometer hygrometer reader is also necessary. I usually recommend weather branded versions because they have more options. You can keep track of temperature humidity high and lows, set alarms to alert you if conditions ever fall out of the safe range you set it on, compare real time outdoor conditions with previous yearly values, and also allow you to use multiple probe devices from a single remote console display.

Prices may vary depending on the additional options and probes needed.
 

JoesMum

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Ok. They’re not as expensive. The vet yesterday recommended one that was $200 and I got a little sticker shock.

So I don’t need thermometers in the set up for quick checking? Just use the gun then?
No they aren't expensive.

A temperature gun will do for the spot temperatures - under the basking lamp, warm side and cool side.

A digital probe type thermometer with min/max function and hygrometerrchased to keep an eye on ambient temperatures and enclosure humidity. Again, you don't need to spend a fortune... roughly the same as the temperature gun.

Do choose one with a probe as they are more accurate. I am not sure if the one recommended above has a probe.
 

otrcoyote

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I’m going to keep this as short as possible and I am open to all responses and suggestions.

I fell in love with sulcatas when I lived in Hawaii. I refused to own one until I had properly researched, considered and thought about long term impacts (I grew up with parrots so I already understood that these animals will probably outlive me and needed a plan in place to take care of them after I die)

5 years later, I bought my baby. I bought a massive tank, heat lamp, UV lamp, hides, bowls, every bedding material amazon had to offer. We measured humidity, adjusted our home thermostat to ensure it didn’t get too cold at night, invested in good light timers for the UV and heat lamp, built an outside run for daily grazing and sun soaking.

I feel like I did everything right (which I’m sure I didn’t, but I learned and adjusted) we all make mistakes when we are learning, right?

Anyway, tortellini seemed great. He arrived in July all bright eyed and adorable. He takes daily warm soaks and daily outdoor time. He eats a variety of greens, lettuces (but not iceberg) no fruits, hay, soaked pellets and lots of clover.

The past week I noticed that he was sleeping a lot more and eating a lot less. I upped his soaks, and checked my humidity. His belly got soft and today he is so lethargic that he won’t open his eyes.

He has no discharge, no eye bubbles, no runny nose. He appears completely normal, minus the soft shell. He was getting calcium sprinkles 2x a week on his greens.

I called my local exotics vet and she hasn’t called back yet. I feel so bad. I thought I was doing everything close enough to correct....and he was perfectly fine for the past few months! He even evacuated with us for the hurricane and spent the week in a fancy hotel being spoiled by the kitchen staff (who brought him up all the little greens left over from prep every day....and they used locally sourced items for their menu so I wasn’t concerned about pesticides or anything)

I even went so far as to stop and pay a lady $5 to pick her prickly cactus pads from her back yard....lovingly (though there was a bit of cursing involved) despined them, rinsed and cut them up for him.


Can someone deduce where I went wrong here. I’m certain he doesn’t have much time left, he is lethargic and refusing to open his eyes today and I’m still waiting on the vet to tell me when to bring him in.

Is there any hope that he will pull through and the vet will have some cure for this? I don’t know what happened and I’m so sad that I am responsible for his care and I failed him.

Sorry for the essay, thanks for listening :(
I WOULD NOT WAIT FOR A CALL. TAKE YOUR TORT TO THE VET OR FIND AN EMERGENCY EXOTIC CLINIC (IF POSSIBLE) TO TAKE HIM THERE AND STOP WAITING :(
 

Heather B

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Best wishes with your baby. I really hope it pulls through.
 

MrT for me

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I’m a newby myself so the advice from others on this forum far exceeds any claims I have of knowledge. With that being said Tom informed me of the solarmeter 6.5 that has REALLY opened my eyes to exactly how much my spur thigh was getting. I was absolutely floored to find that one of my coil style uvb bulbs was putting out 17.6!! My poor little friend was being bombarded and it’s no wonder he wouldn’t open his eyes. I revisited all my uvb light setups and tested them and then kept a little log on a paper and numbered each light to keep tabs on them. My little friend is now back to his normal self and I can’t thank Tom enough for bringing this to my attention. You don’t know what you CANT see and that Solarmeter really opened my eyes to what I NEEDED to know to keep my little friend happy and healthy. May or may not be related to your present predicament and I pray your little friend might pull through. Sure is a cute little friend you have there.
 

turtlelog

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You have worked so hard to help provide for your little one! Only thing I know to do is pray and next soaking, put baby carrot food in the water. Vitamin A helps a lot. Also heard cammolile tea soak is helpful. Hope ( and pray) these 2 soaks help to revive your baby.
 

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