Advice on newly accquired 5 yr old Male Horsefield's

[turtleboyleo]

Hello All.

Some advice would be welcome in trying to understand the behaviour of our newly accquired Horesefield's.

He is housed indoors in a 6 foot x 3 foot tortiose table with its own little seperate sleeping area. When we got him approx 2 months ago, his substrate was mostly topsoil with some coco coir remnants. I have recently changed this out for orchid bark as the topsoil was so dusty and hard to keep a humid environment for him. I have just replaced his small water tray with a bigger 17" teracotta dish.

I have a 125W mercury vapour buld giving a shell height temp of approx 95 degrees and a UV strip light. His tortoise table is also positionerd next to a window to give natural light. Although we live in Northern Scotland and sun has been absent so far this summer. We also get him out in the garden when it's sunny, when we can.

He eats a fairly varied diet of lamb's lettuce, kale, mallow, clover, dandelion and other weeds. We use tortoise table app to find safe foods for him.

He is soaked in a warm bath approx twice a week and usually produces lots of nice poops and urates (like toothpaste, not gritty).

Recently though, after a bath, he will just disappear and burrow away and stay sleeping for days. He has definitely slowed down with eating aswell.

I am worried he is wanting to hibernate (brumate) and we do not want him to do this during summer. Previous owner said she has never allowed him to brumate in 5 years. I am fully prepared to allow him to do this over winter but not right now.

Any advice on what to do? Do I need to heat his sleeping area with a heat mat or something?

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

What age is your tortoise? When did you get him?

I would switch the mercury vapor bulb to separate heat and UVB lights. Some mercury vapor bulbs are known to cause hot spots and your tortoise might be trying to hide from them.

This article has tips on keeping your tortoise up and preventing brumation: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tortoise-care/overwintering-your-tortoise/

Basically you have to get him convinced that it is still summer. To keep him up provide ambient lighting with some LEDs in the 5000-6500K color range. Set your heat and ambient lighting on a 12 hour on and off schedule with a timer. Keep the day time ambient in the high 70's or 80s and the basking area around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Don't let the night time temp drop below 65. You can use ceramic heat emitters on a thermostat to do that.

You can dig him up every morning to get his day going until he gets adjusted to the timer.

 

[turtleboyleo]

Thanks for this. Tortoise is 5 years old and we have had him for approx 2 months.

His lighting/heating is on a 12/12 timer just now, maybe we can change it to 13/11.

Good to know there's no issue with digging him up and getting him moving.

I will look into better temperature management overall. I'm not sure what his nighttime temp is, so it may well be too cold.

 

[turtleboyleo]

For info, here's a pic of his habitat just now (his sleeping bit is though that archway).

Apologies for the angle but is from a webcam I've set up to keep an eye on him whilst I'm working away.

Any advice/criticism greatfully accepted.

 

[turtleboyleo]

Here he is

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome! Adorable little Russian, they’re such personalities

I’m going to include some information below you’ll hopefully find helpful
As @The_Four_Toed_Edward said, keeping in a warm, 12 hour cycle enclosure will trick him into thinking it’s summer

As adults they ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 foot enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthens their muscles.
They can’t get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams.

As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that our climate makes it difficult to house outdoors, an outdoor enclosure is great for them to enjoy on summer days though! I would generally discourage free roaming outside of a safe enclosure.
Care advice for these guys is painfully behind, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of people who have spent years finding the best ways to care for them that actually result in healthy tortoise.

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc including the appropriate indoor uv

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. They are a non light emitting bulb. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. When in a cooler climate you’ll probably need them.

Heat mats that the tortoise doesn’t have direct access too can work(just make sure tortoise can lie on it or anything because they can cause burns)but I have no experience with them personally.

Indoor Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon, there’s lots of conflicting information telling people to keep their uv on for 12hours a day, it stems from the thought that as soon as the basking bulb, ie the ‘sun’ comes on, that uv must be on too, fact is UV rays don’t peak till around midday for a few hours, many member have used UV solar meters to confirm this. Tortoises in the wild don’t get blasted with 12hours of UV, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for(I personally recommend the Arcadia because it comes with everything to mount it, whereas the zoo med is just the bulb)and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

I’d recommend getting a timer to set your basking light and any ambient lighting you wish to use on a 12hr cycle and one to put your T5 UV on for roughly 4hours from noon. Simple plug in wall timers will do the trick

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, and you were right to remove the the top soil, the problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Just as a heads up, sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then, as like you say, you don’t want dusty substrate, that can cause respiratory problems. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed. I recommend having digital monitors that read both temperature and humidity.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate. I’d use chains so your lights aren’t just hanging by the wires. Never rely on just the clamp fittings some come with.
I can see what look like similar stands in part of the photo of your set up, so you’ll know what I mean

For a water dish the shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest so that’s perfect! I’d personally sit it a little more flush with the substrate.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correctyou can use them to scan the whole parameter.

I’m sorry this looks such a lot to go over, my responses can look very lengthy

Some of the enclosure examples are too small but they’re there to give you an idea if you’re up for upgrading the size

The tortoise table website is perfect for ideas isn’t it! I use it too, there’s so many plants in the wildflowers section that grow perfectly in our climate! Perhaps you could get you hands on some seeds offline and plant them in some organic soil, in an outside planter the tortoise doesn’t have access too, they come in handy to forage from as they grow
If foraging from other areas, be sure it’s somewhere that uses no chemicals like fertiliser or weed killers, avoid high traffic areas like by roads etc. There can also be toxic lookalikes so post anything you aren’t sure of, or message the tortoise table on fb

Hope all this helps

 

[turtleboyleo]

Hello and welcome! Adorable little Russian, they’re such personalities

I’m going to include some information below you’ll hopefully find helpful
As @The_Four_Toed_Edward said, keeping in a warm, 12 hour cycle enclosure will trick him into thinking it’s summer

As adults they ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 foot enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthens their muscles.
They can’t get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams.

As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that our climate makes it difficult to house outdoors, an outdoor enclosure is great for them to enjoy on summer days though! I would generally discourage free roaming outside of a safe enclosure.
Care advice for these guys is painfully behind, fb pages, YouTube, pet stores, they’re all repeating the same outdated advice, this forum is made of people who have spent years finding the best ways to care for them that actually result in healthy tortoise.

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc including the appropriate indoor uv

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. They are a non light emitting bulb. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. When in a cooler climate you’ll probably need them.

Heat mats that the tortoise doesn’t have direct access too can work(just make sure tortoise can lie on it or anything because they can cause burns)but I have no experience with them personally.

Indoor Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon, there’s lots of conflicting information telling people to keep their uv on for 12hours a day, it stems from the thought that as soon as the basking bulb, ie the ‘sun’ comes on, that uv must be on too, fact is UV rays don’t peak till around midday for a few hours, many member have used UV solar meters to confirm this. Tortoises in the wild don’t get blasted with 12hours of UV, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for(I personally recommend the Arcadia because it comes with everything to mount it, whereas the zoo med is just the bulb)and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

I’d recommend getting a timer to set your basking light and any ambient lighting you wish to use on a 12hr cycle and one to put your T5 UV on for roughly 4hours from noon. Simple plug in wall timers will do the trick

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, and you were right to remove the the top soil, the problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Just as a heads up, sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then, as like you say, you don’t want dusty substrate, that can cause respiratory problems. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed. I recommend having digital monitors that read both temperature and humidity.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate. I’d use chains so your lights aren’t just hanging by the wires. Never rely on just the clamp fittings some come with.
I can see what look like similar stands in part of the photo of your set up, so you’ll know what I mean

For a water dish the shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest so that’s perfect! I’d personally sit it a little more flush with the substrate.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correctyou can use them to scan the whole parameter.

I’m sorry this looks such a lot to go over, my responses can look very lengthy

Some of the enclosure examples are too small but they’re there to give you an idea if you’re up for upgrading the size

The tortoise table website is perfect for ideas isn’t it! I use it too, there’s so many plants in the wildflowers section that grow perfectly in our climate! Perhaps you could get you hands on some seeds offline and plant them in some organic soil, in an outside planter the tortoise doesn’t have access too, they come in handy to forage from as they grow
If foraging from other areas, be sure it’s somewhere that uses no chemicals like fertiliser or weed killers, avoid high traffic areas like by roads etc. There can also be toxic lookalikes so post anything you aren’t sure of, or message the tortoise table on fb

Hope all this helps

Thank you so much!

Will heed all this advice re. temps and never thought of having the UV on a separate timer to the basking bulb (it is a T5 strip light we have just now). It is a mercury vapour bulb we have now but I'll change that out asap. I like the idea of having the chain to be able to adjust bulb height.

As for bigger enclosure, I think we could just about stretch to an 8'x4' but I'll maybe wait until his planned brumation over winter and that will give me time to make something nice for him.

I'm already growing lambs lettuce in a long planter on windowsill next to his habitat (he can't reach this). It's his favorite.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you so much!

Will heed all this advice re. temps and never thought of having the UV on a separate timer to the basking bulb (it is a T5 strip light we have just now). It is a mercury vapour bulb we have now but I'll change that out asap. I like the idea of having the chain to be able to adjust bulb height.

As for bigger enclosure, I think we could just about stretch to an 8'x4' but I'll maybe wait until his planned brumation over winter and that will give me time to make something nice for him.

I'm already growing lambs lettuce in a long planter on windowsill next to his habitat (he can't reach this). It's his favorite.

No problem at all!sounds perfect, you’re making a great tortoise owner already, look forward to following along your journey

 

[turtleboyleo]

Update on things: I now have a digital controller and CHE ensuring his sleep area never gets below 21 degrees Celsius, have swapped MVB for flood on 12hr timer and also have UVB strip light on timer between 12pm and 4pm each day. Temps in basking spots look ok. Tortoise is still, however, wanting to sleep almost all the time and not eating much at all. We have been taking him outside in sunshine when we can and he gets a good soak 2 to 3 times per week. Is there anything else I can try or do I just accept he is lazy?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Update on things: I now have a digital controller and CHE ensuring his sleep area never gets below 21 degrees Celsius, have swapped MVB for flood on 12hr timer and also have UVB strip light on timer between 12pm and 4pm each day. Temps in basking spots look ok. Tortoise is still, however, wanting to sleep almost all the time and not eating much at all. We have been taking him outside in sunshine when we can and he gets a good soak 2 to 3 times per week. Is there anything else I can try or do I just accept he is lazy?

Thank you for the update! It’s great you got the lighting sorted! Only thing I’m noticing is the CHE might potentially get a bit too close to their shell with the way it’s mounted? For more even heat distribution at night/during the day, it could be worth getting yourself a large wide dome for the ceramic(helps projecting the heat down) and hanging it overhead in the middle of the enclosure, that should hopefully help in getting your overall ambient temperature up instead of it being concentrated into the sleeping area, the warmer the ambient temp, hopefully the perkier they’ll become! Worth a shot I reckon let me tag @Alex and the Redfoot and see if he has any suggestions for you to try

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

How long has it been since you made the changes? Remember that everything happens slowly with tortoises.

 

[turtleboyleo]

How long has it been since you made the changes? Remember that everything happens slowly with tortoises.

The lights have been changed for a couple weeks. The CHE for the sleeping area, just a day or two so far.

 

[turtleboyleo]

Thank you for the update! It’s great you got the lighting sorted! Only thing I’m noticing is the CHE might potentially get a bit too close to their shell with the way it’s mounted? For more even heat distribution at night/during the day, it could be worth getting yourself a large wide dome for the ceramic(helps projecting the heat down) and hanging it overhead in the middle of the enclosure, that should hopefully help in getting your overall ambient temperature up instead of it being concentrated into the sleeping area, the warmer the ambient temp, hopefully the perkier they’ll become! Worth a shot I reckon let me tag @Alex and the Redfoot and see if he has any suggestions for you to try

Ahh you mean like a reflective dome? I'll try a couple of them and hang the 2 CHE's I have a bit higher to cover a greater area. Thanks.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

The lights have been changed for a couple weeks. The CHE for the sleeping area, just a day or two so far.

I would wait until he has had more time to adjust to the CHE too before becoming too worried.

How is his appetite now? How often do you have to dig him up?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Using CHE in a dome is really more efficient. On older photos I've seen two domes: narrow aluminium dome (probably, an Arcadia one) and a wide black dome with MVB. I would try to install basking bulb in a narrow dome and CHE in a black dome. However, doesn't address the issue with activity, just makes things pretty

By the way, what is the basking spot temperature now? Is the basking area just next to his "sleeping quarters"?

Two things to try:
1. Add bright ambient light (as was suggested above). Neutral or cold daylight LED lamp/bar/panel/etc. set for 13-14 hours a day.
2. Move basking lamp far away from sleeping area so he has to walk a bit to warm up.

 

[turtleboyleo]

I would wait until he has had more time to adjust to the CHE too before becoming too worried.

How is his appetite now? How often do you have to dig him up?

 

[turtleboyleo]

We are digging him up every couple days. He does occasionally show himself but not very often.

His appetite is not good at all really. I started giving him lambs lettuce a while ago and he seemed to love that but now doesn't seem interested. Unless it's a dandelion or clover flower, he doesn't seem to want to eat at all.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Using CHE in a dome is really more efficient. On older photos I've seen two domes: narrow aluminium dome (probably, an Arcadia one) and a wide black dome with MVB. I would try to install basking bulb in a narrow dome and CHE in a black dome. However, doesn't address the issue with activity, just makes things pretty

By the way, what is the basking spot temperature now? Is the basking area just next to his "sleeping quarters"?

Two things to try:
1. Add bright ambient light (as was suggested above). Neutral or cold daylight LED lamp/bar/panel/etc. set for 13-14 hours a day.
2. Move basking lamp far away from sleeping area so he has to walk a bit to warm up.

Good point about the ambient lighting! Forgot to ask if you’ve added some of that too? @turtleboyleo
Like @The_Four_Toed_Edward says, things do happen slow with them so it could be he’s still adjustingI do think the domes and che placement is worth a try though

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

We are digging him up every couple days.

I would probably wake him up everyday and carry him to the food. To make sure that he at least sees his food daily

 

[turtleboyleo]

Good point about the ambient lighting! Forgot to ask if you’ve added some of that too? @turtleboyleo
Like @The_Four_Toed_Edward says, things do happen slow with them so it could be he’s still adjustingI do think the domes and che placement is worth a try though

I've ordered a couple of domes. Does anyone have a link to suitable led lights?