Aggressive FEMALE Sulcata

[Tom]

So I'm thinking about the future and since Tuck and Trey are getting so big now, they are going to have to move outside full time sometime pretty soon. They are out from around 8am until anywhere from 5 to 9pm now, but their enclosure has no heat or nearby power source for heat in the winter. They have an underground chamber with a rain proof tunnel and all, but it needs no heat in the summer. The logical choice is to move them in with Daisy, my 3 1/2 year old female. They weigh in around 800 grams and she's around 2000. Here is a pic showing the size difference.

Here's a pic confirming that she is in fact a she.

Daisy's enclosure has a full on underground heated shelter and her whole pen is one of the best I've ever done. Its around 20x35'. You can see it all here for reference:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1TwDFhFr0

With dimensions that large and a temperature controlled, underground, 4x4' shelter, it should be perfect for three little torties. Tuck and Trey were incubated for female, but who knows. I can't tell for sure yet.

The problem is that Daisy turns into a maniac as soon as she sees them. She's like a guided ramming missile. I tried flipping her on her back each time she attempted to ram (technique I learned from a guy who has dozens of sulcatas in a several acre pen), but that didn't even slow her down. As soon as I righted her and she saw them, she'd RUN, not walk, straight at them and try to ram them again. I introduced them on neutral territory where neither of them had ever been and I tried for over an hour today, thinking she'd get tired of it, or used to them, or just plain hot in the 100+ degree weather. Nope. She was absolutely determined and nothing would stop her. I tried the hose, flipping, holding her back, I put my hand in between her and the smaller ones and tapped her nose lightly... nothing even slowed her down. I tried putting her over with the big adults, who were wisely resting in the shade, and she ran right up to Scooter, but stopped short of ramming him. He got up and sniffed at her and followed her a bit. She wanted no part of him, so I quickly separated them. I just wanted to see what she'd do with a bigger tortoise.

She's been alone since I got her at three months old and I've never tried mixing her with any other tortoises, since I never had any that were close to her size. I've never seen a female, or one this young, behave so aggressively. Anyone got any thoughts or insight? I thought I might take her for a car ride and stress her out a little to see if I can take her mind off of killing her potential new pals.

 

[ascott]

Tom, did you try to redirect her with a favorite food treat? Perhaps try missing her meals for one day then I mean like stuff her till she can hardly move LOL and then maybe put one of the others in for awhile and see what happens, then take the first little one out and replace with the other one....then if all goes well, sneak the other little one back in kinda out of site....maybe not so in her face/line of site....you might then want to put a food tray down for the little one once your big girl looks close to stuffed.....food is a great tool and "usually" works...

 

[jackrat]

Shock collar.

 

[Tom]

Angela, Her favorite is Mazuri. I gave her a huge pile of it with a big red hibiscus flower stuck right in the middle of the mush. She ate almost all of it, but did leave some behind. I don't think she could have eaten any more than that.

Good idea though... thank you.

Jackrat, If only they made one the right size... haha

 

[Az tortoise compound]

She thinks she is the boss right now. Can you intro a large male in to the pen (with daisy and little ones)? Maybe she needs to be taken down a peg or two?

 

[Tom]

Yes I can. I'll have to block the entrance to her burrow, so she can't just go run and hide.
That's another odd thing about her. She's one of the shyest sulcatas I've seen. She spends most of her time underground. She just comes up to eat and bask for a short while and then back down. Her pen usually looks like a ghost town. That's another reason that I'd like to get Tuck and Trey in there. It would be nice to actually see a tortoise in my fancy tortoise pen .

 

[kbaker]

She's been alone since I got her at three months old and I've never tried mixing her with any other tortoises, since I never had any that were close to her size. I've never seen a female, or one this young, behave so aggressively. Anyone got any thoughts or insight? I thought I might take her for a car ride and stress her out a little to see if I can take her mind off of killing her potential new pals.

The car thing was a joke, right?

First...isn't Daisy the one that was really pyramided and you tried really hard to correct it? She looks great!!

In general, moving the small ones in with Daisy is good, but in this situation it is not good. The main problem here is for Daisy is "She's been alone since I got her at three months old and I've never tried mixing her with any other tortoises,...". Ok, not your fault. I would suggest putting Daisy in with the older tortoises. Not sure of the size difference, they should be monitored for a period of course.

"...see if I can take her mind off of killing her potential new pals..." Things like this will only delay what you need to do. I don't suggest putting a very small young tortoise in with a big monster. I don't know your tortoises as well as you, but put them together and let them work it out. There is always the chance that they won't be best friends.

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That's another odd thing about her. She's one of the shyest sulcatas I've seen. She spends most of her time underground. She just comes up to eat and bask for a short while and then back down. Her pen usually looks like a ghost town. That's another reason that I'd like to get Tuck and Trey in there. It would be nice to actually see a tortoise in my fancy tortoise pen .

Did the nice green grass grow back in her pen??? She is acting like a normal tortoise. She is sitting underground waiting for all the green grass to come back.

 

[EricIvins]

This is what happens to alot of Tortoises when raised alone........Keep her with the Adults, then move the smaller animals to that pen.......It probably won't be correctable at this point, but she isn't going to do anything to the bigger Tortoises........

 

[Tom]

Kevin, Yes. Daisy is the first tortoise I tried the "wet" routine on. Here she is in January 2008 when I first got her. She was only three months old in this pic.

She weighs around 4 1/2 pounds while my adults weigh between 60 and 80. I don't think she'd be safe in with the adults yet. Tuck and Trey are around 1.76 pounds and apparently they aren't going to be safe in with Daisy. I'll try a few things and see what I can make happen. I know you were kidding, but the weeds/grasses are here from around November through May. Whenever the rains come. And she hides all the time then too!!!

Thanks Eric. I mixed and matched all sort of tortoises over the years and never experienced anything quite like this. Within the next year or so, I expect Tuck and Trey to outgrow her. I'll bet they get along much better when they are bigger than her!

 

[Yvonne G]

I think you need to let Tuck and Trey have Daisy's pen and move her up with the big guys.

 

[african cake queen]

Shock collar.

too much!'lol'

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hi, its the little ones that are always the bully.good luck. lindy

 

[SnakeyeZ]

Beautiful tortoises Tom. I have no advice on them though.

 

[ascott]

Well Tom...sounds to me like you will be building another undercover condo with heat and all the cushy stuff for your two youngins :} you know as well as I do that sometimes critters just don't see things the way we would like them to no matter how ma y times we tell them the plan...LOL my I personally think that if you put daisy in with the much much bigger tortoise she could be seriously harmed UNLESS you put her in and it is an immediate love fest...(I mean that in the purest way) and seems as though, while the initial work is, well work, it may be lots less stress on man and tortoise to just make another set up? Good luck with what ever you work out :}

 

[Missy]

How about a temp see through fence in Daisy pen so she can see them but not get to them. Maybe she will get used to seeing them through a wire fence then try putting them together.

 

[Tom]

I think you need to let Tuck and Trey have Daisy's pen and move her up with the big guys.

I took your advice. I think it backfired. This is Chewy. Chewy backed away from her and closed up. Delores just left the area. Scooter is the only one who intimidates her at all, but he is surprisingly gentle with her.

 

[Yvonne G]

She's really got an attitude. She needs a more aggressive name. Annie Oakley? Bonnie? Belle Star?

 

[Tom]

In all my years I have never seen ANY juvenile sulcata THIS aggressive. I've seen young pushy males that do their thing, but this little one is like a guided missile chasing down adults literally more than 10 times her size from all the way across the pen and trying to start fights with them. Chewy weighs 65-70 pounds. Daisy wieghs 4. She was chasing Delores as Delores tried to run away from her! Maybe I'll stick her in with big Bert. He's been all alone over there for a while. Maybe he'll be able to knock her down a peg or two.

Strangely, she's been one of the shyest sulcatas I've ever seen. She's not bold like my other ones and generally avoids contact with people. My other ones follow people so close that they literally trip on them. I figured she'd grow out of it eventually, but I had no idea she had so much tortoise aggression in her.

 

[Tom]

It occurred to me today, while watching Daisy run around like she owns the adult pen, that her father is a stone cold sulcata assassin. My friend gave her father to another friend of his that had around a dozen sulcatas of mixed sexes on a half acre. Two of the resident males were bigger than him. Over time he killed all the other males, including the two that were bigger than him. They explained why he didn't separate him from the others, but it wasn't a reasonable explanation if memory serves.

Anybody want to say that aggression, or the lack thereof, might be genetic?

 

[ascott]

Yes, Tom I do believe that traits can carry through in the blood line....hmm, so Daisy is a potential assassin.....interesting. I would absolutely take that into consideration, so have you started building a new enclosure for your two little ones you initially tried to house with Little Miss Daisy?

 

[Tom]

I think I still like Yvonne's idea. If Daisy can figure out how to get into the big night house, I might just let her live with the adults. They show no interest in hurting her and she CAN'T hurt them. 4 pounds vs. 65-80 pounds doesn't seem like too much for them to handle. Maybe in time she'll just get used to the presence of other tortoises. Or maybe they will run her over a few times and she'll learn to just chill out and behave.