I agree. And it would be good for them to see the tortoise and start a file. They always give you trouble if its an animal they have never seen before, but if the animal has been there once before, its magically perfectly fine to help you out.
Don't let the vet give the tortoise any kind of injection, or in fact, any other treatment, especially without explaining what is is and why it is being prescribed. You need to act "dumb" and pretend you know nothing, and ask many questions, to see what the answers are. Usually, this is how you will know if the vet knows anything or if he or she is just using your tortoise as an opportunity to get experience....God forbid.
That is not because of the sex ratio at hatching. That is because people tend to keep females and re-home surplus males. Females tend to get along well in groups and it is easy to keep a whole bunch of them. For some species, you can only keep one male per enclosure, with some exceptions, but in general males are more problematic, so people are not inclined to keep them when they already have as many as they need. Females are easy to keep in larger groups and are considered much more valuable, so they are not offered for sale as much as males.
My platynota are a perfect example of this. I bought 14 incubated for "female" hatchings, and ended up with 8.6. I sold off 3 of my surplus males to other breeders that already had females and needed a male, so now I have 5.6. The thought of selling any of my females has never even occurred to me. You can find male platynota for sale regularly. Females are seldom sold unless someone is getting out of the species and selling off their whole collection of them, which almost never happens with the island giants.
I know the people Greg gets his from. They have loads of females and hatch many more every year. I now of several people here in CA that had/have herds of female Galapagos tortoises and have had trouble finding males. Years later I discovered places to get males, but the fact remains, you've seen fewer females because people don't let females go as readily. Same thing with sulcatas. Most of the re-homes we see are males, because females are easy to re-home and can live peacefully in large groups, and females are smaller and less destructive, which makes them easier to just keep.
Wow, when did you start knowing anything about Aldabras? Just a few years ago, you admittedly knew nothing about them. Lol
Whatever.
I was reluctant to handle Olive before she was fully acclimated to new habitat. Like most young Aldabras, she's rather timid. Other family members have seen her in water dish, but couldn't say how long she lingered there.
Based on feedback here, I think we're going to begin soaking her (in tub of warm h20) every other day. I'm also going to find spineless opuntia pads.
Off topic in this thread but males for most tortoise species are certainly less valuable and harder to sell. This is not the case for Aldabras and Galapagos and they are a significant exception to this. Plenty of reasons for it.
1. There are probably less of them hatched due to incubation techniques.
2. They are more aggressive and more likely to flip each other and die from that.
3. They are more likely to flip or die of injury during breeding attempts.
4. Continuing on the death theme, it takes 20, probably closer to 30 years for them to get large enough to breed, and experienced enough to "catch their bus" as friend that Tom and I have likes to say. That is a long time to keep a tortoise alive for.
5. You can keep a tortoise alive for 20-30 years but if someone/somewhere along the line gave it a terrible diet or some other husbandry issue occurred you wind up with a sterile animal, or an animal that is too fat or unhealthy to breed.
So, breeding age, fertile proven males for both species are rare and unlikely to be sold. I have seen ads for Aldabras that specifically state the male is not available for sale separately.
1. There are probably less of them hatched due to incubation techniques.
2. They are more aggressive and more likely to flip each other and die from that.
3. They are more likely to flip or die of injury during breeding attempts.
4. Continuing on the death theme, it takes 20, probably closer to 30 years for them to get large enough to breed, and experienced enough to "catch their bus" as friend that Tom and I have likes to say. That is a long time to keep a tortoise alive for.
5. You can keep a tortoise alive for 20-30 years but if someone/somewhere along the line gave it a terrible diet or some other husbandry issue occurred you wind up with a sterile animal, or an animal that is too fat or unhealthy to breed.
So, breeding age, fertile proven males for both species are rare and unlikely to be sold. I have seen ads for Aldabras that specifically state the male is not available for sale separately.
I've been working with other people's Aldabras for decades Barb. I don't keep them because my climate really isn't suitable for them, but as I met and spent time with you in Chicago, I meet up with other tortoise friends around the country when the opportunity presents itself. I've met several people in Florida who deal with this species, and its a big world out there. There is a lot more to this species than the one person who posts here.
So no, I do not have first hand experience hatching and raising aldabras myself, but they are a species of interest to me, I study them, and I learn and ask questions from the people who do keep and know them. I've met people who hatch dozens of them, and I met one person whose operation and facility hatches literally 100's of them every year. Several hundred. At the time of my visit they had 676 eggs in hand, and expected to have a 1000 by the end of that laying season. I have pictures, but promised to not post them publicly, or any details about the facility or location. Prior to a few years ago, I had no idea that places like this existed. They do, and I've been to some of them now. Greg by the way, declined when I asked to come visit. I'm not mad. I totally understand. I just don't know if you understand that there are a lot of Aldabra keepers around the world, tons of them in Florida, and while Greg and his tortoises are super cool, he is not the only source of information and experience with this species.
@incognet Sorry for taking the discussion in your thread in a different direction. Suffice to say that I don't agree with Wellington's assessment that your baby is likely male. I hope this discussion about why I think that might add value to your thread. Your baby might be a male. That is possible, but I don't know of any reason to conclude that this early on. I hope you and your lovely tortoise have many happy decades together.
Most definitely not... I've seen enough horror stories about "vitamin injections" on this forum! We'll ask many, many questions when the time comes.
Our herps-vet is pretty knowledgeable, but turtles/torts are not the majority of her patients. We'd have to visit state capital (Little Rock), or another metro for specialized veterinary care. I'd do this for any serious issues.
Thankfully, our herps-vet didn't make any quack recommendations for my box turtle ("Sunshine"). That visit just ran especially long because she enjoyed the interaction.
My family tends to assume that our pets (even immature rescues) are female, simply because the majority have been. Not everyone understands the law of independent assortment.
Im glad the visit went well with the boxie. If that visit went long, you can expect this one will for sure. Good luck.Thankfully, our herps-vet didn't make any quack recommendations for my box turtle ("Sunshine"). That visit just ran especially long because she enjoyed the interaction.
My family tends to assume that our pets (even immature rescues) are female, simply because the majority have been. Not everyone understands the law of independent assortment.
We've decided to cancel Olive's appointment on Friday. I've been convinced to resume her soaks (which she had as <4.5" hatchling), and tomorrow will be the 1st day. We'll make a new appointment in a few weeks-month... whenever she adjusts to new routine. Little tort is eating & pooping like a champ, so I'd rather not do anything to jeopardize that.
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I am sure you will be fine waiting. The prominent members of this forum have a tendency to be very anti-veterinarian. It comes from a good place though. Its plausible that you would be more likely to get bad advice or unnecessary treatment from a veterinarian rather than actually being helped. There are plenty of horror stories to be found in posts on this forum.
From my own personal experience, if I had not had existing relationships with some veterinarians I would have lost everything. Having your tortoise on record with a trustworthy clinic can be the difference between life and death. Not trying to scare you into rescheduling your appointment or anything. Don't be afraid of doctor shopping for a good one and don't be afraid to refuse treatment or ignore their advice.
Olive doesn't even attempt to visit hide when something frightens her... she'll run back & forth in the habitat, even climbing over plants, but never into the Petmate shell. I may try placing her there after tomorrow's soak.
Oh, that's cool... my little tort is a gourmand! But seriously, Olive absolutely loves the stuff. She's destroyed multiple plants from Soli organic. Their CS rep confirmed that plants are spearmint (safe), not peppermint (toxic).
I'll continue searching for spineless opuntia since the plants we have growing wild (and in pots) are rather spiny. The laxative effect is a definite plus. Olive does munch on the African grass mix we seeded her enclosure with, but that will eventually disappear. We're feeding her original formula Mazuri pellets (sparingly), and planned an eventual transition to Mazuri LS. Maybe we should transition sooner rather than later? I do have a pouch of Mazuri LS on-hand.
I'm convinced, thanks. Olive was given daily soaks until she reached 4.5" at her previous home (FL tort farm). I didn't realize there was ongoing need, especially while the humidity of her enclosure is over 90%. Hopefully this gap in soak regimen won't have any negative impacts; Olive doesn't look flaky, dry or pyramiding to me (yet). We're going to resume ~45 minute soaks tomorrow (between meal service and noon).
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Physicians seem to operate by the same magical playbook. It's always fun to complete patient questionnaires during a medical emergency. We cancelled FRI appointment so Olive can adjust to daily soaks and frequent handling. I wish more vets made house-calls (à la James Herriot).
Wow! Thanks for this nice memory of James Herriot! All Creatures Great and Small.
The PBS series is very popular in my family,. I've actually watched a few episodes (which is rare for me).
Hello everyone. It's time for an Aldabra update. My little tort is ~10 months old and growing like a weed.
We've been soaking Olive every other day since my last forum post. She panicked a bit during first soak, and immediately fouled the water, but was less perturbed during subsequent outings. We are using an opaque Rubbermaid tub filled to a shallow depth (<3") with filtered water. The initial temperature is ~88F, which drops to ambient 74F room temperature after 45 minutes.
I attempted to weigh Olive during her last soak, but we had technical issues with the digital scale. None of the backups were appropriate, because of capacity or sensitivity, so I ordered a decent 15kg lab scale.
Olive has a varied diet which includes fresh and processed food items...
We've been soaking Olive every other day since my last forum post. She panicked a bit during first soak, and immediately fouled the water, but was less perturbed during subsequent outings. We are using an opaque Rubbermaid tub filled to a shallow depth (<3") with filtered water. The initial temperature is ~88F, which drops to ambient 74F room temperature after 45 minutes.
I attempted to weigh Olive during her last soak, but we had technical issues with the digital scale. None of the backups were appropriate, because of capacity or sensitivity, so I ordered a decent 15kg lab scale.
Olive has a varied diet which includes fresh and processed food items...
- 3x Mazuri Tortoise pellets + 2x Mazuri Tortoise LS pellets daily. She is being gradually transitioned to the latter. An occasional pellet (or 2) goes uneaten.
- 4x mulberry leaves. We have a grove of Morus Rubra near our porch, so it's easy to harvest (and Tortoise-approved).
- 1-2x wild muscadine (grape) leaves. Olive is less enthusiastic about these, and doesn't always finish.
- 1-2x lilac leaves. This is a new introduction. We have no-spray lilacs which bloom heavily in springtime.
- 3" strip of spineless Opuntia cactus. We have fresh & frozen pads, with more being propagated in the garden.
- Small portion of store-bought organic greens (kale, bok choi, swiss chard, etc). We typically have 3+ different greens on-hand; Olive gets at least 1/day.
- Zoo Med flower topper (M, W, F, SUN) to compensate for lack of fresh blossoms. We'll have more options next year.
- Tortoise Supply "Food Fixer" topper (TUE, THU, SAT). This could potentially be combined with Zoo Med flower topper, but some ingredients are redundant.
- Assorted houseplants (peperomia, fittonia, etc.) and living herbs. Basil rarely lasts for more than 2 days.
- <1 teaspoon of rehydrated apple and cuttlebone chunks from TropicZone fruit mix (TUE, THU, SAT). We give the remaining berries to my box turtle.
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I'm glad you posted this info. Dietary mistakes are the main reason why these guys get orthopedic problems as they grow. Your diet is far too rich. I suspect small enclosures also play a part.
-Mazuri should only be offered once a week at most, and my island giant mentor suggests 5M21 not be offered to the giants at all.
-Grape leaves are great once or twice a week.
-Mulberry leaves are great once or twice a week.
-Opuntia once or twice. week.
-I've never fed lilac, but if its safe, that is good for variety.
-The food toppers and small amounts of grocery store greens sound good.
-What I am not seeing, and what should be the majority of the diet is weeds and grasses. The bulk of what these tortoises should be eating daily is grass, with all these other things we've been talking about making up 10-20% for some variety. Your baby is too small for dry hay, but you can start soaking horse hay pellets and mixing that in with whatever else you are feeding each day. Grass is easy to grow where you are this time of year. Let the baby graze on its own in a safe pen, or cut handfuls, chop it into short pieces no more than an inch or two for a baby, and mix with everything else. Once they reach 10-12 inches, I start cutting up orchard grass hay into short pieces, soaking it, and mixing that in with all the other foods.
Some of the nicest looking, smoothest, and healthiest Galapagos tortoises and Aldabras are grown outdoors in warm humid climates eating only grasses and weeds in a large pasture.
That website about the calcium is all wrong. Will @Kapidolo Farms has debunked this old myth several times here. Tortoise bladder stones are a by product of protein digestion and they tend to form with dehydration and I suspect a lack of exercise due to small enclosures to be a contributing factor in why the urates are not passed on their own. They are NOT caused by or comprised of calcium. It takes a tremendous amount of calcium to grow from a 50 gram hatchling into a 500 behemoth. A small amount of calcium supplementation a couple of times per week is cheap insurance and cannot do any harm.
Soak water should be in the neighborhood of 85-95. 74 is too cold. Keep that water warm.
I've learned a lot about keeping the island giants in recent years from some very knowledgable people. I hope this info helps you raise yours. Feel free to question any of this. Let's discuss any of it.
P.S. More pics of your gorgeous little baby please.
I agree with Tom, don't feed the original Mazuri as part of their regular diet. To much corn and soy. I have spoken to Mazuri about this several times. The LS formula was designed as a superior replacement for the original formula and they only produce the original one now because people complain that their tortoises don't like the LS as much.
There is a small benefit to feeding the original formula on very rare occasions so they recognize it as food. It is a great way to administer some oral medications. It is highly absorbent with liquid medications and it makes a great mash to mix with solid medications.
There is a small benefit to feeding the original formula on very rare occasions so they recognize it as food. It is a great way to administer some oral medications. It is highly absorbent with liquid medications and it makes a great mash to mix with solid medications.
I do this for that very reason. I usually put just a few original pieces into the soaking tub with the LS for flavor and smell, and they eat the LS better when I do this.
