Always wants to sleep now - early hibernation attempt?

[Throttle]

Our Russian tortoise did not hibernate this last winter, she wanted to at first then seemed to give up, so she has been awake through the fall and winter and now we are mid summer, she seems to want to go to sleep only. Her eating has decreased, even with her favorite foods, she walks around and then burrows, even after a bath and time spent in the outside garden. Her encloser is 7' x 3.5', has a high end UV light, large heat lamp, multiple plants and grow lights, and she used to chase her food around until about a month ago. Any ideas?

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome!

I don’t suppose you’d mind adding a bit more information? It might help us to advisea photo of your full set up would be great!

What are temperatures in the enclosure like? Ie basking spot?(directly under the bulb) overall day temps? Night temps?

What kind of basking bulb is it you have? Packaging photos are handy!

What kind of uv bulb specifically?

What are you using for substrate and how’s your humidity reading?

How’s their diet been?

Any additional info/photos would be good if you’re able

 

[Throttle]

Hello and welcome!

I don’t suppose you’d mind adding a bit more information? It might help us to advisea photo of your full set up would be great!

What are temperatures in the enclosure like? Ie basking spot?(directly under the bulb) overall day temps? Night temps?

What kind of basking bulb is it you have? Packaging photos are handy!

What kind of uv bulb specifically?

What are you using for substrate and how’s your humidity reading?

How’s their diet been?

Any additional info/photos would be good if you’re able

I will try to upload photos when I am home again (currently at work).

The enclosure ranges from 75 - 100 with that peak temp being in the direct basking light and the radiant heat around is in the 80's-90s. Its a T5 light from a german company who i can find again when home. The bulb is getting a little old and will be replaced next month when it hits a year in use.

We feed a vast mix of food, shooting primarily for timothy grass, cactus, aloe, dandelion, and other plants that have been approved on tortoise table. We did leave for spring break in March and she got more lettuce than we would feed because it was easier for the caretaker but she ate cactus and other foods after no problem.

Her substrate is a mix of coconut, dirt, and a tiny bit of sand that we mixed in which i learned after was not ideal but for 28 cubic feet of dirt, was not going to empty the entire enclosure to get rid of. She has multiple hiding spots and her food is served on slate and her water dish is terra cotta. The substrate is pretty dry as we live in Wyoming and in summer all moisture evaporates quickly but we give her at least one big bath a week and she gets outside time when shes awake and we are home. She drinks multiple times in her bath and while she was pooping more when eating regularly, I have not seen her poop in a while either which gives a little concern.

Generally she looks healthy, is reactive to touch and checkups (feet are out, shes looking around, eyes are normal color, no goop or abnormalities in any sense), and is active when outside of her enclosure.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

There are some improvements that could be made, but won't necessary be the root cause of your problem:

• Adult Russian tortoises need an 8 x 4 feet enclosure at minimum
• Timothy grass isn't great Russian tortoise food since Russians aren't actually grass eaters
• Sand isn't good, but you seem to be already addressing it

When you say the substrate is try, does it get dusty? I recommend when you get a new UVB light, that you go for the zoomed or arcadia T5 tubes. They are found to be the best quality.

This article has tips on keeping your tortoise up and preventing brumation: https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/tortoise-care/overwintering-your-tortoise/

Basically you have to get him convinced that it is still summer. To keep him up provide ambient lighting with some LEDs in the 5000-6500K color range. Set your heat and ambient lighting on a 12 hour on and off schedule with a timer. Keep the day time ambient in the high 70's or 80s and the basking area around 95-100 directly under the bulb. Don't let the night time temp drop below 65. You can use ceramic heat emitters on a thermostat to do that.

You can wake him up every morning to get his day going until he gets adjusted to the timer.

I will tag a few knowledgeable people in case I am missing something @Tom @wellington @Yvonne G

 

[Throttle]

Thank you, we are using Arcadia T-5 right now and i could not remember than name for the life of me. She definitely responded to it when we change to Arcadia last year.

I have been pulling her out of her hiding holes to get her up and in the heat but today, even with the scent of cucumber to entice her to her food, she burrowed under a plant instead of eating. It doesnt get below 70 at night in there and her terra cotta pots where she sleeps mostly seem to keep it a bit warmer in her home.

All lights are on timers - 8am to 8pm.

I will stop feeding grass, we had read it was a suitable food source and the pellets are much easier to keep than fresh food (we rehydrate in warm water first).

We cant unfortunately make her enclosure any larger as we live in an apartment and were given poor information when looking to buy her from the 'specialized' reptile store who said the 2x4 enclosure would be fine and we could feed her lettuce and microgreens every day which we later learned was wrong.

Its the lack of eating that has me most worried, she was eating great for months and just randomly stopped eating as much and not even showing interest many days.

 

[Tom]

Thank you, we are using Arcadia T-5 right now and i could not remember than name for the life of me. She definitely responded to it when we change to Arcadia last year.

I have been pulling her out of her hiding holes to get her up and in the heat but today, even with the scent of cucumber to entice her to her food, she burrowed under a plant instead of eating. It doesnt get below 70 at night in there and her terra cotta pots where she sleeps mostly seem to keep it a bit warmer in her home.

All lights are on timers - 8am to 8pm.

I will stop feeding grass, we had read it was a suitable food source and the pellets are much easier to keep than fresh food (we rehydrate in warm water first).

We cant unfortunately make her enclosure any larger as we live in an apartment and were given poor information when looking to buy her from the 'specialized' reptile store who said the 2x4 enclosure would be fine and we could feed her lettuce and microgreens every day which we later learned was wrong.

Its the lack of eating that has me most worried, she was eating great for months and just randomly stopped eating as much and not even showing interest many days.

Seems like dehydration might be an issue. Dry substrate and dry conditions with only soaking once a week might be the issue. Sand impaction is also a possibility. They ingest tiny amounts with their food daily, and some tortoises pass it while it seems to collect in the gut of others until it causes a blockage. Dehydration can also cause them to form bladder stones, which could cause the symptoms you describe.

I think an X-ray is in order. That could eliminate some of these possibilities.

Start soaking daily for a coupe of weeks and keep the soak water warm for the entire 30-40 minute soak. Dampen the substrate. Add a mid hide. Add some LED lighting. Sometimes plant "grow lights" are not of the correct spectrum for animals. The hay might also be causing a blockage. Russians will sometimes eat some grass, but they usually don't digest it well in my experience. Dry hay over a period of time could conveibably cause a problem.

Please keep us updated as you go along. We can all learn from whatever you discover.

 

[Throttle]

Seems like dehydration might be an issue. Dry substrate and dry conditions with only soaking once a week might be the issue. Sand impaction is also a possibility. They ingest tiny amounts with their food daily, and some tortoises pass it while it seems to collect in the gut of others until it causes a blockage. Dehydration can also cause them to form bladder stones, which could cause the symptoms you describe.

I think an X-ray is in order. That could eliminate some of these possibilities.

Start soaking daily for a coupe of weeks and keep the soak water warm for the entire 30-40 minute soak. Dampen the substrate. Add a mid hide. Add some LED lighting. Sometimes plant "grow lights" are not of the correct spectrum for animals. The hay might also be causing a blockage. Russians will sometimes eat some grass, but they usually don't digest it well in my experience. Dry hay over a period of time could conveibably cause a problem.

Please keep us updated as you go along. We can all learn from whatever you discover.

yeah, I was leaning to an xray. We dont have a reptile specific vet here but we have one who can do small animal xrays (i rescued a slider that fell off someones deck and we had to get it care and find a foster). I will try to keep the substrate wetter and spray it daily as well as soak her more. thank you for the help so far! I will make sure to update as we learn more.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you so much for the responses! They’re super helpful, you’ve been given some great advice so far and would love for you to keep us in the loop

As adults they do ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthen their muscles, I do however absolutely appreciate your situation! I have a family member who brought a red foot from a store with terrible information too, they had no idea how much space she actually needed.
There are lots of cost effective options to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, hopefully some of my suggestions below help inspire an idea! If it’s already as big as you can go, I understand, what size is it out of interest?(no judgement)

I’m going to include some information on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, including the appropriate indoor uv(which you already have but I’ll include everything anyway for any new members that come across threads)

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

Adding ambient lighting on the same timer will help in hopefully tricking them into it being summer time, provide shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. Doesn’t sound like that’s an issue for you though.

The Arcadia uv you’re using is perfect

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss.
The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic.
Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too. I would personally recommend changing up the substrate as soon as you’re able.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then or give the top a spray. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

Some of the examples look small, but basically that idea on the biggest scale you’re able

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting.

A shallow terracotta saucer is perfect for the water dish!

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun if don’t own one, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct

Hopefully some of this helps for if you want to make any tweaks that will hopefully aid in your guy getting betterdaily soaks sounds like they’re in order for a few weeks at least, wishing you all the best

 

[Throttle]

Thank you so much for the responses! They’re super helpful, you’ve been given some great advice so far and would love for you to keep us in the loop

As adults they do ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthen their muscles, I do however absolutely appreciate your situation! I have a family member who brought a red foot from a store with terrible information too, they had no idea how much space she actually needed.
There are lots of cost effective options to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, hopefully some of my suggestions below help inspire an idea! If it’s already as big as you can go, I understand, what size is it out of interest?(no judgement)

I’m going to include some information on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, including the appropriate indoor uv(which you already have but I’ll include everything anyway for any new members that come across threads)

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

Adding ambient lighting on the same timer will help in hopefully tricking them into it being summer time, provide shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. Doesn’t sound like that’s an issue for you though.

The Arcadia uv you’re using is perfect

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss.
The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic.
Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too. I would personally recommend changing up the substrate as soon as you’re able.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then or give the top a spray. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better.

Some of the examples look small, but basically that idea on the biggest scale you’re able

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting.

A shallow terracotta saucer is perfect for the water dish!

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun if don’t own one, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct

Hopefully some of this helps for if you want to make any tweaks that will hopefully aid in your guy getting betterdaily soaks sounds like they’re in order for a few weeks at least, wishing you all the best

Were doing the best with what we have now and our enclosure looks somewhat similar to your examples. We had to make it 7' due to the size of our living space, it could not fit at 8'. We have mostly coco husk and organic topsoil that i was very anal about having no fertilizers of any type but if we ever get lucky enough to move, we will shop vac the entire thing and can make new substrate out of coconut husk and bark instead. She really likes digging in the substrate too. Our goal is to someday own a space we can create an outdoor greenhouse for her in year round, with more than ample roaming room but in the meantime, we do put her in the living room with full sunlight to roam post bath which isnt of course all day, but does give her extra exercise. We also try to change the look of her enclosure so its more stimulating. Thank you all again for the help, it makes me slightly less stressed.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

7 foot is still a very good size!

Yeah I would definitely recommend changing that substrate as soon as, sounds like that’s the plan

I wouldn’t worry about free roaming with a 7 footer for now, indoor free roaming comes with its own plethora of risks unfortunately, but sounds like you’re ready to change a few of the things that need doing.

Hope things start getting better for your little one

 

[Throttle]

My wife gave her a bath yesterday while I was at work where she drank a lot and peed a lot. Today, in her bath, she had a decent poop so I am taking that as a small win since its been a minute. We will continue to give daily baths as suggested above and started to spray down her enclosure in the morning before the lights turn on. I can confirm the lower layer is still moist but its also 5" down or so. I will continue to give updates and get photos soon

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

My wife gave her a bath yesterday while I was at work where she drank a lot and peed a lot. Today, in her bath, she had a decent poop so I am taking that as a small win since its been a minute. We will continue to give daily baths as suggested above and started to spray down her enclosure in the morning before the lights turn on. I can confirm the lower layer is still moist but its also 5" down or so. I will continue to give updates and get photos soon

Yayyy! Definitely going in the right direction! keep us posted

 

[Throttle]

Well, good news and bad news. We keep giving her a bath but now that everyone is back at work its a bit shorter in the AM, with me filling up her new xl water dish and soaking her there for a bit til she decides to walk out (shell sploot for a few minutes).

We got her to eat some aloe and cactus over the weekend but not much, so we decided to try her favorite 'treat' and see if its really an eating situation or picky one. She got out of her bath today and was eating the romaine for 15 minutes or so before I had to leave. I added some calcium supplement as I know romaine has no nutritional value and also added cactus hoping she would continue to eat it after the lettuce was done.

Very excited to see shes still about food, bummed that its something we used as a treat while gone since its not a sustainable food source. I will try to cut bits up and see if we can transition her back to a healthier option. Believe it or not, she wasnt even down to try cucumber when we were using different tricks from other posts on here. Small win I guess, I will continue to provide updates and will be getting a new bulb for the UV lamp soon as well.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Bless you, still going in the right direction though, you’re doing really well with her, keep persevering

 

[Throttle]

Update - we keep bathing and feeding, she eats how much she wants when she wants and is still really really into sleeping.

Yesterday we let her sleep through the morning and took her outside for an hour or so in the afternoon where it was quite hot and sunny. She then had a soak and proceeded to eat as aggressively as she used to which was great to see. We are gonna try again today to let her nap through the morning and get active in the afternoon again for a bit. She also had a big poop in the tub so it feels like there isnt a blockage. New bulb should arrive today as well and maybe the UV is just low enough she thinks its sleepy time like someone mentioned above. Ill give an update near the end of the week when the new bulb has been running for a bit.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Glad to hear she managed to poop!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you for the update! Things sound positive

 

[Throttle]

Double update day! We got the new bulb in and while I installed it, my son put our tortoise in the garden then a bath. While she was chillin in the water, we cut up some romaine, dandelion, one round of cucumber, and I minced some cactus to make it even smaller and spread it over the leaves along with the calcium supplement.

We let her walk from the bath to her enclosure (she knows the way) and she dropped a big poop on her walk. We then put her in the water bowl again in her enclosure where she drank more water and hung out, then she proceeded to eat more food than she has in at least a few weeks, almost finishing it all! I used an entire cactus pad that I trimmed the top and bottom off of (they were browning) so it was finally a good mix of preferred food and treat food; we couldnt leave cause it was so exciting to watch!

I think it was UV that was slowing her down. I guess 12 months, the recommended timeframe, is a little long for the arcadia bulb in her enclosure. With the daily sun and soakings, she has stepped up her activity again and it brings such relief.

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. We are going to continue what were doing, get better substrate to redo the enclosure when we can, and give updates.

I am working on a contraption to cool her down come hybernation/brumation time as she was really into burrowing in her enclosure last year but wouldnt stay asleep when I tried to move her out so she could cool down to the appropriate temp. Any suggestions about how to cool a tortoise in their enclosure is much appreciated.

 

[_The_Beast_]

Double update day! We got the new bulb in and while I installed it, my son put our tortoise in the garden then a bath. While she was chillin in the water, we cut up some romaine, dandelion, one round of cucumber, and I minced some cactus to make it even smaller and spread it over the leaves along with the calcium supplement.

We let her walk from the bath to her enclosure (she knows the way) and she dropped a big poop on her walk. We then put her in the water bowl again in her enclosure where she drank more water and hung out, then she proceeded to eat more food than she has in at least a few weeks, almost finishing it all! I used an entire cactus pad that I trimmed the top and bottom off of (they were browning) so it was finally a good mix of preferred food and treat food; we couldnt leave cause it was so exciting to watch!

I think it was UV that was slowing her down. I guess 12 months, the recommended timeframe, is a little long for the arcadia bulb in her enclosure. With the daily sun and soakings, she has stepped up her activity again and it brings such relief.

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. We are going to continue what were doing, get better substrate to redo the enclosure when we can, and give updates.

I am working on a contraption to cool her down come hybernation/brumation time as she was really into burrowing in her enclosure last year but wouldnt stay asleep when I tried to move her out so she could cool down to the appropriate temp. Any suggestions about how to cool a tortoise in their enclosure is much appreciated.

This is a great update! To help with ensuring your enclosure UV bulb is doing what it needs to do, you can get a solarmeter 6.5. It will tell you when the bulb is no longer emitting enough UV and can be helpful in the term for both your tort's health and saving money They can be pricey up front but will be worth it in the long run

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Aw yay I’m glad things are looking so much more positive! Definitely keep us in the loop with update with your set up