Am I overfeeding my 18 month russian?

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

I recently got another Russian tortoise and i noticed my first one was roughly 3 times as large. I am not sure if this is meant to be a normal amount of growth in a year but the older one is already approaching 4.5 inches across the carapace. The internet said this was the same size as a four year old but i really don't think so, i just wanted some advice to see if maybe i have been feeding him wrong because i don't want to make the same mistake with the new one? Any help would be great

 

[Blackdog1714]

My russian is great about eating what they need to eat, I put a shell size pile in the moring and clean up the leftovers the next moring. In regards to your two torts in the same eclosure-PLEASE NO. Russians are very territorial and will go after each other. Sadly this is a thread on TFO of the worst case https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/tortoise-bit-off-the-head-of-cage-mate.175301/

 

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

Ok thanks, thats about what a feed Travis. As for the keeping them in the same enclosure they seem to get on well but at feeding times the bigger one will tend to try and bite the smaller one occasionally. I didn't realise it was such a threat, thanks again i will definitely be mow careful in the future

 

[Tom]

What are you feeding your tortoise and how much?

Tortoises should never live as pairs. You need to separate them ASAP. Read this: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/

Don't learn this lesson the hard way at your tortoises expense. Pairs do not work. Especially not Russians. They are one of, if not THE, worst species for fighting and aggression.

 

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

ok how should i separate them as i only have one enclosure? I never realised this was such a problem, lots of people who had two reported no problems so is this significant to russians in general?

 

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

Also i feed them romain lettuce, kale and tortoise food pellets, i also occasionally sprinkle a supplement powder onto the food.I feed them dandelions in the summer and other plants i can find( after checking they are ok). I feed them roughly a shell size per day.

 

[Tom]

ok how should i separate them as i only have one enclosure? I never realised this was such a problem, lots of people who had two reported no problems so is this significant to russians in general?

Groups of juveniles will sometimes get along, but never pairs. As adults, they can sometimes be kept in groups with one male in a large enclosure, but sometimes, even that doesn't work. This problem is for all tortoise species, but Russians tend to be one of the worse about it. California desert tortoises are pretty bad too, and adult sulcata males will literally fight to the death. Redfoot and star tortoises tend to be less combative, but even they will sometimes fight in pairs. And its not just overt obvious attacks, like the biting you are seeing. It is usually much more subtle than that. Sitting on the food, "cuddling" at night, resting face to face, following each other, etc... These are signs of tortoise hostility.

 

[Tom]

Also i feed them romain lettuce, kale and tortoise food pellets, i also occasionally sprinkle a supplement powder onto the food.I feed them dandelions in the summer and other plants i can find( after checking they are ok). I feed them roughly a shell size per day.

Kale or romaine are not good foods. Kale has goiterogens and romaine is just water. Either are fine once in a while, but not as main stays to be fed regularly. The main grocery store greens to use, if you must use them at all, are endive and escarole. Try to make those two the main staples and use all those others for variety. It would be good if you amended those grocery store greens with:

• Mazuri tortoise chow
• ZooMed Grassland Tortoise chow
• ZooMed Forest tortoise Chow
• Herbal hay: https://www.tortoisesupply.com/HerbalHay
• Some of the many offerings from Will at Kapidolo Farms: https://kapidolofarms.com/161-2/

Here is a small starter list of good things to feed instead of grocery store lettuce. When feeding flowers and such, be sure not to use store bought stuff because it will be full of systemic pesticides that cannot be washed away. Grow your own, or cut from long established, untreated plants:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

 

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

Oh wow! Thank you so much I will try to expand to endive, escarole and any others i can find at the shop and if i see a plant in my garden i will check if it is on the list. I never realised how much they could eat, especially all the chows!

 

[jso]

Russians are so easily over fed. They’re programmed to eat what’s available to them in a very short season - a two or three month which Ndola between a long hibernation and a longish brumation.
I think brumation is hard to manage safely - does anyone do It?
Hibernation can be a hived by the normal methods.

But keeping them in perpetual optimal summer conditions, as if they were hermanns or graeca, will mean that they eat much more than might be good for them in the long-run.
Even worse if they’re not hibernated.

Mine is a rescue. Very badly distorted from too rapid growth, and insufficient calcium, when younger. So much so that I haven’t hibernate him in the few years he’s been with me - simply because Im not too sure about his internal health, and the usual measurements for safe hibernation parameters are hard to discern because of the shape of his shell. But he does slow down a bit in winter despite artificial heat and light, and I deliberately feed him less frequently and smaller amounts. Think that’s the right thing to do in this particular case?

 

[jso]

ok how should i separate them as i only have one enclosure? I never realised this was such a problem, lots of people who had two reported no problems so is this significant to russians in general?

Depends how big the enclosure is to start with? If it’s big enough for two, then arguably you could just put a partition down the middle. But you’d have to have heat and light in each half. If you’re using a UV tube, that would work across the division, but you’d still need another basket light.

 

[jso]

Russians are so easily over fed. They’re programmed to eat what’s available to them in a very short season - a two or three month which Ndola between a long hibernation and a longish brumation.
I think brumation is hard to manage safely - does anyone do It?
Hibernation can be a hived by the normal methods.

But keeping them in perpetual optimal summer conditions, as if they were hermanns or graeca, will mean that they eat much more than might be good for them in the long-run.
Even worse if they’re not hibernated.

Mine is a rescue. Very badly distorted from too rapid growth, and insufficient calcium, when younger. So much so that I haven’t hibernate him in the few years he’s been with me - simply because Im not too sure about his internal health, and the usual measurements for safe hibernation parameters are hard to discern because of the shape of his shell. But he does slow down a bit in winter despite artificial heat and light, and I deliberately feed him less frequently and smaller amounts. Think that’s the right thing to do in this particular case?

Sorry, I meant “aestivate”where I wrote “brumate”

 

[OwnerOfTravisAndBoris]

Thanks, they seem to be getting along very well but i have been keeping a closer watch after Tom said it might not be as it appears. Travis does eat a lot, but his shell is looking healthy so im not sure if he s just a bit bigger than usual?