Amazing article on pyramiding and mbd

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Yes. This was Andy's "180". His previous article called the humidity thing "a red herring" and likened people who found it valid to people who actively believe in aliens and UFO's. I find it funny that Ed was the one he credits for turning him around...
 

sibi

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
6,486
Location (City and/or State)
Florida, USA
Well, I finally got an answer to a question I had for a while. I observed that aquatic turtles never showed pyramiding and wondered if it had anything to do with the fact that they have 100% humidity all the time. According to this article, it has to do with the manner of growth of their scutes. Aquatic turtles can still have MBD, but is not obvious from their external carapace. Interesting article for sure. Also, can't stand academics who don't give credit to those it owes!

I trust that one of the pioneers on humidity being a large factor in healthy carapaces is aTom. The fact that discussions were had between the two over this very issue means that this author chose not credit Tom at all. That's wrong any way you look at it!
 

Richsandwich

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Messages
157
I wouldn't call it an amazing article. Seems like a long article with no pictures or real data of any kind.
 

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
Agree with richsandwich.
Sibi, notice this is before Tom started with the theory. I will still just point out that pyramiding is a combination of factors, humidity solves part of the problem-mainly just external- but you have to get other things right. I cannot agree with Tom that if you get the humidity right everything will be OK-don't say you haven't said this- but I will take that back if you think you can prove it. In fact, maybe a good experiment for you, poor diet, temps, space etc. with 80%+ humidity vs good all the other things at 50% humidity. I reckon the latter would result in better growth
 

sibi

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
6,486
Location (City and/or State)
Florida, USA
No, I have never said, nor has Tom, that humidity is the only factor in promoting a healthy carapace. Of course, there are other factors that promote a healthy carapace, but humidity is certainly a huge factor! I don't know what was discussed between Tom and this author, Andy, but it's my understanding that Andy claimed that humidity was not a major factor in pyramiding before this article. Now, in this article, he makes a 180 degree turn around as the article points out. Btw, you have no idea when he really started his theory. When most people have theories, thoughts about the theories are often started long before making the theories publicly known. Just out of curiosity, do you question that there were discussions between this author and Tom?
 

EricIvins

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
1,183
This "theory" has been around for 25+ years. It formally started in Europe, but people keeping Tortoises in humid areas were experiencing this before someone actually put it down on paper. This was before Ed, Tom, Andy or anyone else had a clue.....
 

sibi

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
6,486
Location (City and/or State)
Florida, USA
Okay, even if that's true, Tom has conducted his own experiments, used his own personalized methods, and had thousands of discussions with individuals, including Andy, about the role humidity has in pyramiding. This thread points to accreditations to Ed, and if Tom feels that for all his efforts in getting Andy to believe how the lack of humidity can cause pyramiding, his name was not even mentioned, why shouldn't Tom make light of it? Who of us wouldn't get a little slighted if we were not given some credit for something we had done?
 

Millerlite

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
2,670
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Calif.
I don't know if you can say toms the only guy to have that theory, or the only guy to test it. Because he asked and posted on the forum a lot doesn't mean he was the pioneer, not saying he doesn't deserve credit... But who are we to give credit too.. I know in the science world all about publishing work or you won't get credit for it.

Kyle
 

jaizei

Unknown Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Messages
9,054
Location (City and/or State)
Earth
Before this gets out of hand, Tom was making light of it because of the debates between Andy and Ed, not because he wanted credit. Thanking Ed is kinda like Andy eating crow.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Sorry for any misunderstanding. I've never met or talked to Andy. I've just read some of the things he's written and said.

While I may have developed my own style and added to the idea humidity for "desert" species, the first time I saw it in print was the Fife leopard tortoise book. Humidity for chelonians is nothing new, that is true. Humidity for sulcatas and leopards IS relatively new. Anyone, anywhere in the country being able to grow a smooth leopard or sulcata is relatively new too. I can't take credit for inventing any of this. I CAN take credit for being a real loud mouth about it and arguing with "the establishment" about it. I may have helped to introduce the concept to some people here on this forum, but not too many people out in the "real" world would know who I am, or what I've done.
 

sibi

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
6,486
Location (City and/or State)
Florida, USA
Well, I'm so glad you cleared that up. Now, tbose who questioned you're contributions can take their arguments elsewhere:D


Thank you for the reference and the clarification.
jaizei said:
Before this gets out of hand, Tom was making light of it because of the debates between Andy and Ed, not because he wanted credit. Thanking Ed is kinda like Andy eating crow.
 

New Posts

Top