Anal scute convergence and gender

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Our male Russian tortoise (Mork) seems normal in every way. However, we have another Russian tortoise (Mindy), who we regard as female because of how short and stubby her tail is, and by how star-shaped her cloaca is. Nevertheless, the convergence of her anal scutes is U-shaped, rather like that of a male instead of a female. Have any of you ever encountered this kind of a contradiction before?

 

[bikerchicspain]

Can you send pics of her anal scute, tail side on, underside of the tail and a side view.
That way it will be easier to sex.

What age is she?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Okay, here are plastral pix of our tortoises.

The male, estimated at about 7-10 years old:

The one we believe to be female, estimated at about 5-6 years old:

We are confident that the first one is male, even though his anal scutes form a kind of V-shape, because his tail is long and thick, and we have even seen him protract his penis. The second individual has a short tail and appears to be female. However, her anal scutes form a U, not a V. Is this unusual? Have you seen this before? Does it mean that this one could turn out to be a male as it gets older? Please let me know what you think.

 

[Kristina]

Anal scutes and plastron concavity in Russians is not a reliable way to tell sex. Males and females are very similar in that regard. The length of the tail and the shape of the cloaca is more accurate. Looks like a male and a female to me.

 

[GBtortoises]

I completely agree with Kristina.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Okay, thanks. I'm glad. Hopefully they will breed in a few years then.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Gaddy:

I THINK that quite a while in the past, when the female was just a very young tortoise, she had a bit of a mishap that caused a piece of her plastron on the right anal scute to come off (left side in the picture). Like being chewed or something. It is asymmetrical, like there was an old injury.

 

[October]

Hi Gaddy:

I THINK that quite a while in the past, when the female was just a very young tortoise, she had a bit of a mishap that caused a piece of her plastron on the right anal scute to come off (left side in the picture). Like being chewed or something. It is asymmetrical, like there was an old injury.

I was gonna mention that. At some point she appears to have some damage that healed. If it were undamaged, I could see where it would form the V. It looks like a male and female to me despite that.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Yes, it is assymmetrical, isn't it? We got these two in April. As I said, the male seems completely normal, but the female must have had some kind of problem in the past. It could have been a bite from a predator, but I think it was something more systemic than that. I showed in another thread that she is missing the outermost claws on both hind feet, which could be an incubation problem. Also I think her diet wasn't the best when she was younger. Her shell is not grossly misshapen, but if you look at it closely you can see that it is a bit too high in the front and a bit too low in the back, and that the supracaudal and posterior marginal scutes are a bit too high, exposing just a little too much rump. Also the whole shell is just wee bit assymetrical; it's so slight that I didn't notice it until I had owned her for about a month.

I used to have a box turtle that had definite signs of surviving a predator attack, but this looks different to me. All of this suggests to me that she had MBD to some degree earlier in her life. So, come to think of it, you're right. If her anal scutes were more symmetrical, she would have the typical V-shape, but because her right side is a bit too short, there is the impression of a U-shape instead. Whatever her past, both she and her mate are getting a good diet of forbs now, with vitamin and mineral supplementation. They both weigh more than the minimum (according to the Dr. Susan Donohue equation), are active, and get some time outside when weather permits. Mindy might have some slight permanent disfigurement, but at least she is doing well now.

---

BTW - Notice how both tortoises seem to have some erosion of their scutes near the outer edge of their mid-plastron. What causes this? Is there something I should be doing to help them heal?

 

[October]

BTW - Notice how both tortoises seem to have some erosion of their scutes near the outer edge of their mid-plastron. What causes this? Is there something I should be doing to help them heal?

To my untrained eye, it looks like old shell rot that eventually dried up. I'm not really sure what to do about it honestly, but I'm not sure there's much that could be done. Maybe some lanolin just to keep those parts lubricated? The small square chink in the femoral scute of the male looks very similar to a spot on my WC Russian. That just appears to be an old injury on her. So it's hard to say.

Did you get both of them from the same people? It seems odd that they have similar plastron issues but have vastly different histories.

I'm glad Mork and Mindy have a good home now. And I love their names!

 

[Kristina]

It is most likely shell rot that occurred during importation. These guys are packed one on top of another in big crates and then the crates are stacked on ships. The crates get pretty nasty with all the waste and dead tortoises by the time they hit the States. It looks old and dry, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Ah, shell rot. I have never seen that before, although as a boy learning how to keep box turtles (and doing a bad job of it for a long time), one of my boxies did have peeling scutes until I finally provided her with the right substrate.

I bought both of our RTs from the same pet store. I asked the clerk if they were CBB (I don't knowingly buy WC turtles anymore), and she said they were. They got them (and a third RT in the same terrarium) from somebody in the community. I suspect that person had raised Mindy from a hatchling, although Mork (and the other male) might simply be LTCs.

Anyway, maybe these tortoises were just being kept on the wrong kind of substrate, like my box turtle was. Hopefully their shells will just recover now.

 

[Kristina]

Can I see carapace shots? I can tell you 99.9% if they are WC or captive bred Unfortunately, pet stores aren't well known for their knowledge or honesty. Sad but true.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Can I see carapace shots? I can tell you 99.9% if they are WC or captive bred Unfortunately, pet stores aren't well known for their knowledge or honesty. Sad but true.

That is true. Do you need a top-down shot, or just a good profile/half-profile shot?

 

[Kristina]

Top-down. If you give me a profile too though I can tell you sub-species as well

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Top-down. If you give me a profile too though I can tell you sub-species as well

That's awesome. Okay, here is a top-down picture of our male Russian tortoise:

Also, next time I take them out, I'll take a top-down picture of our female for you, as well as profile pictures of both. And I'm going to show you pictures of both from behind, so you can see how the female's marginals and supracaudal scutes are raised, leading me to believe she is not only CBB, but also a survivor of a poor diet growing up.

 

[Kristina]

Your little guy looks WC to me. Looking forward to the other pics

 

[dmmj]

I can tell you without seeing a pic if they are WC or CB. If they are in a pet shop and bigger than a hatchling, they are WC. no ifs ands or buts about it.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Okay, here we go (rubbing his hands together)...

First, the male, who is thought to be LTC:
Top (you've already seen a top shot, but here's another one for consistency's sake):

Profile:

Behind:

Now, the female, who is thought to be CBB:
Top:

Profile:

Behind:

As I said, based on her shell, I think the female had some nutrition problems before I got her. Fortunately, they don't seem too bad. Eager to find out what you think!

 

[Kristina]

Both are WC. The female looks more like she suffered an injury rather than had nutrition issues, or was born with a slight defect. I have one tortoise that is slightly "out of round" and one that has a rear foot that doesn't face quite the direction it should. Either way it was a long time ago.

The rough texture of the vertabral scutes and the thickness of the growth lines are what tell me this. In the wild Russians grow in short, fast spurts, as their growing period is only about 3 months of the year. The female also appears to be older than the male. What is her SCL?

Both also appear to be Testudo horsfieldii kazachstanica. That is the BIGGEST indicator that the pet store probably lied. I have 4 T.h.k. myself, but I purchased them all at the same time from the same importer. I am 99.9% sure yours came in on the same shipment together.