another baytril thread

Orpexo

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Hi everyone,

I was going to answer the other thread titled 'help please (antibiotics, now ill)', but as my post was becoming very long I tought he started looking like thread hijacking so I decided to open my own thread... my questions are kinda similar tough. Forgive my unperfect english if I fail to filter every mistakes, it is not my native language.

Here's my story.
I pulled my tort out of hibernation 10 days ago and moved him in his terrarium.
I failed to check his plastron at the time, I did not want to annoy him and avoided handling him as everything seemed fine. I now regret that a lot.

After a week it seemed clear that, while the tortoise was eating a bit and basking, he was eating and moving a lot less than his usual self. (at first, I was not to worried since he was just waking up but as the days passed I became increasly worried) I finally checked him and his plastron was very red, very bad. No bleeding or damage but a red colour on the plastron, which seemed also a bit softer than usual. I was not sure if it was some bad shell rot or septicemia.

I took him to the vet, however there is no vet experienced with reptiles near my place (I am a bit in the middle of nowhere), only a couple of cat and dogs vets. The vet wasn't too sure but concluded on some kind of infection on the plastron, and I give him a baytril injection everyday since then (he got 2 injections so far, I am supposed to give it for 10 days). Baytril is something I have seen recommended for similar cases on other forums, so I was not sceptic about it, until I read the other thread at least. However the injection is a bad moment for both me and Koopa. Since I started injections my tort stopped eating altogether and seems kinda weak, he refuses to eat even if handfeeded, even fruits, even radish leaves and other sweets.

The tortoise moves out of his hide to bask under the light and comes back to the closest hide when the lights goes off. I considerably increased the duration of basking lamp compared to what I usually do at this period of the year. He doesn't roam like usually. I started giving mashed-carrot bath to try to compensate for the lack of food. I am worried because the tortoise did not eat much at all since is out of hibernation and have probably not much reserve.



If baytril is the cause of lack of appetite and weakness It puts me on a dilema...
Koopa is about 4 year old, 540g, male, about 14cm in size. I give 0.1ml of baytril 5% per day.

I 'd take any advice on how to encourage my baby to eat again. Is there anything that can be done to make sure he doesn't colapse from lack of nutriments?

Another question I would really like to know the answer is: how much does he suffers exactly? Torts being always quite, it is hard to tell.
 

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Orpexo

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simply go back to the thread list from which you selected this thread, above and below the topic list, on the right you should see a green 'new topic' button
 

Saleama

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I used baytril on three of my juvenile box turtles that had swollen eyes and where very lethargic. They didn't have bubbles comeing from their noses but they would sneeze when soaked and green discharge would come out. After a few days of the injections they started burying themselves and after a week their eyes started to open a bit. At ten days they opened their eyes completly and at 14 days they are out and about and eating again. I have a vet that has studied exotics and comes highly recomended in my area though. He cautioned me that they would maybe have some side effects like discoloration and loss of appetite but since they already were not eating and an off color turtle is better than a dead one, I decided to take the risk. i am glad I did.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Orpexo:

I don't think that is septicemia. Septicemia shows up as very red new growth lines, and the new growth on your tortoise looks perfectly normal. Is it possible that the tortoise has gotten something rubbed off onto him from something red? Like maybe red newsprint?

It's really too bad you don't have access to a tortoise vet because I think this tortoise needs to be seen in real life, not in pictures on the Forum.

I'm sorry I don't have any words of wisdom for you, but if that's not an external coloration, I really have never seen anything like it before.
 

Saleama

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It looks similar to a case on here a while back where the tort had been dropped and another where the tort had been stepped on.
 

Orpexo

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Thanks for the replies. The tort did not receive any shock and was not stepped on as far as I know. Rubbing it is harder to say since i don't know what he was doing in his hibernation box, bit it is unlikely.

my best guess is that the substrate in his hibernation box was too wet and that eventually infected the plastron. The hibernation was 4 month.
The preceding year I did everything the same way but the hibernation was shorter.

It is true the shell has no damage, only the colour is wrong. I am not sure how an infection could go through the plastron, but I have no other ideas. I may have influenced the vet talking this way.

On the shell, and soft skin there is nothing wrong. Eyes are normal. Nothing on the noise or ears.
 

Yvonne G

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Send a PM to EricIvens and ask him to look at this thread. He may have an idea or two about it, as he sees many, many rescued tortoises through his club.
 

mikeh

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Re: RE: another baytril thread

Yvonne G said:
Send a PM to EricIvens and ask him to look at this thread. He may have an idea or two about it, as he sees many, many rescued tortoises through his club.

Its "EricIvins". Please share with us if you get a response.
 

George red foot

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Hi the post you were going to reply to was mine. My tortoise was on baytril for a skin wound. He was absolutely fine before the baytril and went dramatically down hill after one dose, he went very lethargic refused to eat and actually puked. It was so horrible to see. The vet gave me some 'critical care' food and advised me to stop giving him baytril. He is already looking much better!! I had to mix the critical care food with lots of water and syringe feed him as he was so poorly but it has really helped and I'm happy to say my tort is so much better and more active. I really hope you tort is better soon! Hopefully you can get him off the nasty baytril! Made my tort so poorly :( xx
 

katrvt

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The baytril dose your kiddo is on is within established dose range for torts... Go on Amazon and buy oxbow critical care herbivore fine grind. Also benebac bird and reptile probiotic gel or powder and a six or twelve ml syringe from your vet. Mix a bit of benebac into the critical care and try to syringe your kiddo a bit 2-4x a day. Mix should be a bit thinner than baby food to go through syringe... I agree that we need to find you a vet within reasonable driving distance if we can..
 

Orpexo

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Thanks everyone
I read more things about baytril and it seems to be quite bad indeed. I am not sure what to do. I should maybe stop it and simply let the tortoise be as confortable as possible.

I talked to my wife and she did not see the tortoise fall either. He could not have fall so hard alone in his habitat. I ll try to find time to take better pictures and post it here tonight. This morning I had the impression tthe plastron was slightly different than three days ago.
 

ascott

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What kind of substrate did you have the tort on during brumation?

Also, it can take a tort a couple weeks or more to be interested in food when they come out of their rest.....this alone is not a trigger for fear.

I would make sure that you soak this tort each and every day and would have suggested this for the first 2 weeks (at least) for no less than 30 minutes each of those soaks.....keep the water warm during the entire soak...

If the tort is acting tired still that is not totally unusual, especially since you said they rose only 10 days ago....I would watch the tort carefully, as you should for the first 2-4 weeks out of brumation, just to make sure the behavior does not turn bad..

Baytril being given straight out of brumation would worry me....I am a person that has used Baytril with beautiful results for the tort here----he ate, drank basked and did all his wonderful things while being treated....

Where are you offering the injection at on the tort (front/back/loose skin/in the muscle???) See, to me the tort needs to clear his system out of as many urates as possible coming out of brumation...this is imperative, so the soaks are so very important....now, my worry would be that the torts kidneys are under demand right now normally and then they are being stressed by an antibiotic, and in this case a strong antibiotic...to me this can be bad.

I would wonder if at the end of the soaks you take a soft toothbrush and gently brush it on the colored area in question...then rinse the tort again in the water....perhaps doing this for a few days will begin to lighten the color...and if so, then the color is something likely absorbed by the substrate combined with moisture...where did you place the tort in his brumation box while he slept??? (garage, closet, patio, porch??)....how long have you had the tort?


Oh, if you are going to brush the area with each soak...please be sure to take a clear picture for yourself as a reference and then be sure to compare the tort at the same place/location/time of day and such to assure your lighting for comparison remains alike....we have a way of forgetting what something looks like from the start to the end of a process....:D
 

Orpexo

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Koopa spends the winter in a herp nursery II lucky reptile.
substrate in the box is dirt. I have the tort since 3 years.
Injections in pectoral and pelvic mussles, but I decided to stop them.
I came back very late from work so no pictures, heading straight to bed, I ll see tomorow.
 

Orpexo

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here is a file with better pictures:
http://okibul.free.fr/koopa/14032014/

the plastron is hard exept for the area circled on this picture:
http://okibul.free.fr/koopa/14032014/mm.JPG

I am no expert but from what I see I would imagine the following:
the outer plastron is like a thick layer of varnish. in between this layer and the thicker bone is the problem: a mix of blood and incolor fluid. I am saying that because when I press on the circled area I can see a small movement of the blood mark.
ex.jpg

at some places the varnish gets a witish colour wich seem unatural.

koopa seems well this morning exept he refuses to eat and will probably go back to hide as soon as basking time is finished.

I have been keeping the habitat dryer than usual because I did not want the plastron to be wet or encourage shell rot.
 

EricIvins

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Key words here - "The vet wasn't too sure but concluded" and "Baytril"

The two just do not belong together. First and foremost, Baytril is a horrible choice for a anti-biotic. There are so many other choices on the market that Baytril should be phased out and be brought back maybe 20 years down the road when all these bugs that are resistant to it, are no longer resistant.

Second, get the animal to a Vet with Chelonian experience. Whether you drive for hours or ship the animal. Point blank. I have never had a Vet prescribe Baytril for shell issues.

Third, it either looks like Septicemia or something that stained the animals shell. This brings us back to number two...
 

Orpexo

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update:
koopa's condition is improving. I noted he only eats when bathing in natural sun, so I try to give him that as much as possible. (I quickly stopped the baytril treatment)

koo.jpg
 

Yvonne G

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Wow! That's quite an improvement. I'm so glad to see that he's getting better. What did you do to help him? Or did you just 'let nature take its course'?
 

Orpexo

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Yeah pretty much I just 'let nature take its course'. No medication, just the usual daily water soak, and as much natural sun the weather let us have. He is under UV lamps and basking spot the rest of the time, but despite him basking under the lamps he never eats when he is there. I tried changing the lamps for new ones, thinking they may be malfunctionning, but it did not improve is appetite. When he gets the real sun he eats. He does not have is usual activity yet tough. I hope it gets better has the temperature rises with summer coming.
 

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