Another major radiated tortoise confiscation in Madagascar

[Tom]

....read a question posed onetime , is keeping an animal alive in captivity but extinct in the wild really much of an accomplishment ?

Hell yes it is! How is this even a question? On one hand we have a species gone from the face of the earth forever, never to be seen anywhere ever again, and on the other hand we can have steady captive breeding assurance colonies all over the world, with endless possibilities for reintroduction if the local problems can be resolved and correct methods figured out. Might reintroduction fail? Yes. Of course it might. So what? Try again later or in a better spot. Learn from the failure and figure out how to do it better. Solve the problem(s) that made them go extinct in the first place. If there are none breeding in captivity, then there is no possible hope of saving the species.

Lots of reintroduction programs around the world have been successful. Sorry they haven't figured out how to do it right with your local Blandings turtles, but that is no reason to discourage any other attempts around the globe.

 

[kazjimmy]

Nobody said anything about "unregulated". We are talking about regulated, legal trade in CAPTiVE BRED animals. If demand could be met this way, there would be no need and no incentive to remove them from the wild.

And the failure of the re-intoduction program of your one local species is not an indicator that all such programs will fail, or that we shouldn't try. And even if the re-introduction program is failing, for whatever reason, how can breeding more of them in captivity be a bad thing?

I agree with you. Radiator tortoise will be 100% extinct in the wild due to super high demand. By the time our Govt finally agree legal import. We will still buying them from overseas not from the smuggling but tortoise farm that ppl started long long time ahead of us.

 

[enchilada]

Radiata probably cannot drop to $100 because of their reproduction rate .
I think around $500 would be an idea price for basic color and high quality ones can go whatever the market value is .

Of course that would be just pipe dream if nothing changes on regulations

 

[x-tank]

Have you guys seen these local quarantine / rehabilitation / release center established by turtle survival alliance?
They provide locals with some financial support and help local to be " aware " and " knowledgeable " about their tortoise to become extinct. lol but this is not really helping and improving their lives. The money from donation is limited, the local need to learn how to make their own money. What I think they should be doing is since everyone loves their tortoise, why not establish a farming facility. breed tons of these animal and export for money? They can breed them faster than anyone else. Let's say they keep a quota of releasing 40% of offsprings back to wild and export 60% of those with highly desired color/pattern with profit. Because of selecting breeding, the F1, F2 are going to have much better coloration than wild caught ones, people will stop collecting the wild ones. If the locals can see that they are making a living from breeding these animals, they will be encouraged to care more about this and make sure they don't get extinct. Show them the capitalism. lol.

 

[Tom]

Have you guys seen these local quarantine / rehabilitation / release center established by turtle survival alliance?
They provide locals with some financial support and help local to be " aware " and " knowledgeable " about their tortoise to become extinct. lol but this is not really helping and improving their lives. The money from donation is limited, the local need to learn how to make their own money. What I think they should be doing is since everyone loves their tortoise, why not establish a farming facility. breed tons of these animal and export for money? They can breed them faster than anyone else. Let's say they keep a quota of releasing 40% of offsprings back to wild and export 60% of those with highly desired color/pattern with profit. Because of selecting breeding, the F1, F2 are going to have much better coloration than wild caught ones, people will stop collecting the wild ones. If the locals can see that they are making a living from breeding these animals, they will be encouraged to care more about this and make sure they don't get extinct. Show them the capitalism. lol.

Agreed. If you want to encourage anything anywhere in the world, make it profitable. Human nature.

They did something similar to what you've suggested here when the American alligator was nearly extinct in Louisiana. There were only a few thousand left in the whole state. They banned alligator hunting and trapping, and the numbers continued to decline unabated. In the late 60s a game warden proposed a new idea: Allow people to farm the gators and make money on them. The program allowed licensed alligator farmers/ranchers to go collect all the eggs they could find from the wild. They were then to hatch and head start all the hatchlings in a safe captive environment. When the hatchlings reached 48" at about one year old, the government would come collect 17% of them for release back into the wild. At 4' the only thing in the wild that will kill an alligator is another alligator. The ranchers could then sell off the rest of what they raised for meat and leather, meeting the demand, now legally, the the illegal poachers had been meeting before. After about 10 years, the game officials realized 17% was far too many. The wild population was exploding beyond anyone's expectations, so they dropped it to 12%. There are now millions upon millions of American alligators in Louisiana. They've dropped the rate to 10% and re-opened hunting/trapping season on wild alligators in the state because now they have far too many. So how did the American alligator in Louisiana go from the brink of extinction to way too many in a few decades? All the government had to do was allow people to do what people do, and get the hell out of the way.

Similar story for the recovery of the Peregrin falcon. As soon as the government admitted defeat after their dismal failure and let the people who knew what they were doing have at it, the species recovered and continues to thrive to this day.

 

[kazjimmy]

Radiata probably cannot drop to $100 because of their reproduction rate .
I think around $500 would be an idea price for basic color and high quality ones can go whatever the market value is .

Of course that would be just pipe dream if nothing changes on regulations

Radiate tortoise lay lots of eggs

 

[kazjimmy]

Have you guys seen these local quarantine / rehabilitation / release center established by turtle survival alliance?
They provide locals with some financial support and help local to be " aware " and " knowledgeable " about their tortoise to become extinct. lol but this is not really helping and improving their lives. The money from donation is limited, the local need to learn how to make their own money. What I think they should be doing is since everyone loves their tortoise, why not establish a farming facility. breed tons of these animal and export for money? They can breed them faster than anyone else. Let's say they keep a quota of releasing 40% of offsprings back to wild and export 60% of those with highly desired color/pattern with profit. Because of selecting breeding, the F1, F2 are going to have much better coloration than wild caught ones, people will stop collecting the wild ones. If the locals can see that they are making a living from breeding these animals, they will be encouraged to care more about this and make sure they don't get extinct. Show them the capitalism. lol.

Simply catch female and keep them during breeding season. Keep the egg release the female. We do not need to keep the adult because they are already adopted the environment.

 

[mark1]

if I want a radiated tortoise , I can get 1,2,3 or 10 ? they are regulated , not illegal to own , breed or sell …….

alligators were brought back through regulation and habitat protection , I believe they're recovery had something to do with the endangered species act , which I doubt anti-regulation folks appreciate ? the problem with alligators was over hunting and habitat destruction , the federal and state government addressed that problem ...….they weren't recovered by some guy in concord ohio keeping 2 of them in his basement , or some dude in japan …… I assure you there are folks today poaching alligators , whereas they could just legally buy one …….

as far as putting something in a "better spot" , at what cost ? what gets displaced by them ? you can't find a better spot …… the entire population is in an area the size of a small state in the US , a natural disaster or disease can wipe them out easily ….. I believe they estimate there are 6 million , they also are estimated to have declined by near 6 million in the last 10 yrs ……..

if they are wiped out of their natural range , only live in zoos and as pets , I personally think you've accomplished nothing ecologically …….. without regulations to protect them and their habitat in the wild there is no place for them , they serve no purpose …you need to solve the problem at the source …… as is demonstrated here in the US , partial native range state regulation are counter productive …….. it increases the price and serves as absolutely no significant protection …… you can see obviously wild caught NA wood turtles or blanding's turtles openly for sale on the internet or reptile shows in non-native range states ……. you won't see that aspect of the problem with federally protected species …….

I did find my original article , and I believe I was mistaken in that the confiscation appeared to be 8.2 tons of bush meat , not entirely radiated tortoises ……...

 

[mark1]

a man can kill a 12 foot alligator , let alone a 4 footer ……

I think the federal government "saved" the peregrine falcon , with regulations …….. the reason for the problem was not in anyway within the control of any hobbyist or group of hobbyist …….

 

[Tom]

a man can kill a 12 foot alligator , let alone a 4 footer ……

I think the federal government "saved" the peregrine falcon , with regulations …….. the reason for the problem was not in anyway within the control of any hobbyist or group of hobbyist …….

You are wrong. The federal government was completely inept, as usual, and all its Peregrin programs were dismal failures by any measure. The Peregrin was saved when the feds stepped aside and let falconers do what falconers do.

All your government regs and federal programs were exactly what was driving the alligator to extinction in Louisiana. They kept passing more laws to stop the carnage, and more and more laws were blatantly ignored as the poaching continued. Poaching was profitable and there was no other way to meet market demand. As soon as farming started, there was a safe, easy, legal way to meet market demand, so all incentive for poaching disappeared with the stroke of a government pen that allowed regular people to make a living.

 

[mark1]

could you tell me what non-government (USFW) program was responsible for the peregrine falcon recovery ? what was the reason for their decline ?

what government regulations were responsible for the demise of the alligator ? I believe alligator hunting was unregulated until they were about to be wiped out , like 1960 ? at that point hunting was made illegal , I believe the recovery ensued ?

 

[Tom]

if I want a radiated tortoise , I can get 1,2,3 or 10 ? they are regulated , not illegal to own , breed or sell …….

Right, but you can't ship them across state lines without permits that the feds don't want to give out, and it is almost impossible to get permits to ship them from one country to another. This is stupid and it needs to change. Simply saying "no", is the entire reason we have poaching, smuggling and an illegal black market. If we give people a way to do this things legally, with CB specimens, there will be zero incentive to poach them from the wild.

alligators were brought back through regulation and habitat protection , I believe they're recovery had something to do with the endangered species act , which I doubt anti-regulation folks appreciate ?

Wrong and wrong again.

the problem with alligators was over hunting and habitat destruction

Right.

the federal and state government addressed that problem ...….they weren't recovered by some guy in concord ohio keeping 2 of them in his basement , or some dude in japan …… I assure you there are folks today poaching alligators , whereas they could just legally buy one …….

Yes, they did address that problem, pass laws, and ban hunting and poaching. All their efforts did nothing and the population continued to decline rapidly.

What in the heck does a guy in Ohio have to do with this?

Poaching today? Probably, but its risky and unnecessary. If it happens it happens on a small scale and it is more than compensated for by the captive head start programs that are still in place today. We went from a few thousand to tens of millions of alligators because of alligators farmers turning a profit, not because the feds banned hunting or closed off public lands. Those laws and restrictions were completely disregarded and ignored by the people who were the cause of the problem.

as far as putting something in a "better spot" , at what cost ? what gets displaced by them ? you can't find a better spot …… the entire population is in an area the size of a small state in the US , a natural disaster or disease can wipe them out easily ….. I believe they estimate there are 6 million , they also are estimated to have declined by near 6 million in the last 10 yrs ……..

No one is saying that re-patriating the wild is easy or without problems. What is being said is that captive assurance colonies are a good idea, no matter what happens in the wild. Allowing a species to go extinct because we can't currently stop the problems that are affecting their wild habitat, serves no good purpose and helps no one or nothing. Allowing regulated trade in captive bred specimens will eliminate the incentive for poaching by meeting market demand with a safer, better, legal, and more affordable product. As far as protecting the wild habitats, and populations, well... that is an entirely different, very complex, multi-faceted problem. Stopping the poaching is fairly easy. Saving the habitat and wild populations from the people who share their habitat is a much greater challenge. We can't even do it here. Look at the local desert tortoises and their habitat.

Your figures are wrong. There were an estimated 12 million in the early 1970s. The most current estimates put them at 6.5 million. We are talking about a decline over nearly 5 decades, not one. This is bad any way you look at it, but its really not surprising given the history of the island over that time frame. Many other species around the world are in much more dire circumstances.

if they are wiped out of their natural range , only live in zoos and as pets , I personally think you've accomplished nothing ecologically

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree completely. As long as the species lives and has enough individuals capable of reproduction and enough genetic diversity, there is always hope. If one attempt fails, lessons can be learned and more attempts made. As long as we keep breeding them in captivity, infinite attempts to save them in the wild can be made. If they are destroyed and wiped out in their native habitat, and no one has them in captivity in zoos or as pets, they are gone forever with ZERO hope or chance of fixing the problem or saving the species.

Yes we should try to save them in their native ranges and save the native ranges too, but that doesn't mean we should have and encourage an easy insurance policy. Or in this case an "assurance" policy.

…… as is demonstrated here in the US , partial native range state regulation are counter productive …….. it increases the price and serves as absolutely no significant protection …… you can see obviously wild caught NA wood turtles or blanding's turtles openly for sale on the internet or reptile shows in non-native range states ……. you won't see that aspect of the problem with federally protected species

I can't speak to your turtles and this issue. I know nothing about it. However, I can tell you from many other examples that government ain't gonna solve to problem. They never do. They make it worse.

If whatever they are doing isn't working, we need to address the failure, figure out the problem, and solve the problem. In the mean time, captive breeding efforts by passionate hobbyists should be not only allowed, but encouraged. Then, when we figure out how to correct the problems in the wild, we'll have something to work with to put back. If we shut down possession, commerce, captive breeding efforts, and sales across state lines, we gain nothing. The habitat destruction will continue and the species will simply vanish from the face of the earth.

 

[mark1]

not my figures ..…..


Distribution of Radiated Tortoise (Astrochelys radiata) Bush Meat Poaching Effort
Author(s): Ryan C. J. Walker , and Tsilavo H. Rafeliarisoa
Source: Chelonian Conservation and Biology, 11(2):223-226. 2012.
Published By: Chelonian Research Foundation

O’Brien et al. (2003) state that the harvesting
accounted for the removal of up to 45,000 tortoises
annually from the wild; however, when you consider the
population decline of 5.7 million tortoises in a decade
(2000–2011) to 6.3 million tortoises (Leuteritz et al. 2005;
Rafeliarisoa et al. in press), this results in a mean removal
of approximately 518,000 tortoises/yr from the wild
population, potentially making the most recent estima-
tions woefully short of the true figure. Indeed habitat loss
(Walker 2011) and poaching to support the illicit pet
trade, predominantly in Asia (Nijman and Shepherd
2007), are contributing to this loss; however, anecdotal
accounts and accounts in the local media describing the
scale of the bush meat trade would suggest that these 2
latter causes of decline are almost insignificant given the
current scale of the bush meat poaching problem. For
example, the national media reported a confiscation made
within the Ambovombe area during October 2011
amounting to 8.2 tons of dried meat, 155 pounds of fresh
meat, and 222 live tortoises, with 6 villages and
potentially hundreds of people thought to be involved in
the operation (Andriamarohasina 2011).

 

[enchilada]

Radiate tortoise lay lots of eggs

But takes 10+ years to mature .

 

[Tom]

could you tell me what non-government (USFW) program was responsible for the peregrine falcon recovery ? what was the reason for their decline ?

what government regulations were responsible for the demise of the alligator ? I believe alligator hunting was unregulated until they were about to be wiped out , like 1960 ? at that point hunting was made illegal , I believe the recovery ensued ?

Individual falconers started breeding the peregrines. Of course they couldn't get started until after the feds had killed a few hundred of the last ones before realizing they had no idea what the hell they were doing and were failing at every turn.

What caused their demise? DDT coupled with laws against possession and breeding. Banning DDT stopped the immediate problem , but it did nothing to bring the species back from impending extinction. Falconers who cared about the species, and knew what they were doing, did that.

Prior to the 60s I don't know what the hunting regulations were for alligators in LA, but I know the population was in serious decline. The government took action, banned hunting, and the decline continued unabated. The government tried several laws, bans, penalties for poaching, and none of their efforts did anything to slow the extinction. The tide turned as soon as licensed alligator ranchers went out to the wild and collected every egg they could find. All the eggs hatched and all the babies survived and thrived, vs. the normal rate of attrition that happens when they hatch in the wild and everything eats them. Within a few short years the population began to rebound. If I recall, it was only 10-12 years before they realized that their holdback amount of 17% was too much and that the program was actually TOO effective, which prompted wildlife officials to drop the holdback number to 12%. Over time, even 12% was too much, and its been reduced to 10%. Alligator numbers have literally grown by the millions over the decades despite the illegal hunting and poaching that probably still takes place. The species has completely rebounded solely because humans were allowed to profit from working with them, vs. being 100% banned from doing anything with them. Bans don't work. Humans earning a living DOES work, and it works to the advantage of the animal species in question.

 

[mark1]

you honestly can't believe laws/regulations and enforcement are not what's behind these recoveries ???? it's for sure not the general public , the general public is the reason the laws/regulations are needed …….the obvious reason for the alligator population recovery was the ban on hunting , along with the lacey act adding reptiles , followed by regulation enforcement .… the first gator farm in louisianna was opened in 1984 , I assure you alligator populations had recovered long before that date , I believe they were completely delisted in 1987 ? alligator hunting was banned in 1962 or 63 in florida and Louisiana , 1969 in texas …... by 1972 they started allowing commercial harvesting , by 1979 the population was estimated to be 1,000,000 and growing , exporting hides and meat were legal ……. wasn't until they were recovered and growing in population before they started allowing eggs to be harvested , 1981 , which is where those farms get their alligators , they not breeding them …….and I don't believe farmed alligators were ever used to add to the wild population ? because they were never in that much trouble …….

the "American peregrine falcon recovery plans" , I believe there were 5 regional plans , were developed and implemented by the USFWS ………. none of it would have been possible without a federal ban on ddt like pesticides and insecticides …….. laws/regulations and enforcement are what saved peregrine falcons along with a bunch of fws biologist …… i'm confident it wasn't a bunch of random hobbyist , randomly letting birds go , if it was , what state ? and is there a record of it ………………. are a bunch of private hobbyist also responsible for the bald eagle ? the brown pelican ? osprey's? condors?

every resource needs regulated , or I guarantee you someone will abuse it , they always have ………...

 

[Tom]

you honestly can't believe laws/regulations and enforcement are not what's behind these recoveries ???? it's for sure not the general public , the general public is the reason the laws/regulations are needed …….the obvious reason for the alligator population recovery was the ban on hunting , along with the lacey act adding reptiles , followed by regulation enforcement .… the first gator farm in louisianna was opened in 1984 , I assure you alligator populations had recovered long before that date , I believe they were completely delisted in 1987 ? alligator hunting was banned in 1962 or 63 in florida and Louisiana , 1969 in texas …... by 1972 they started allowing commercial harvesting , by 1979 the population was estimated to be 1,000,000 and growing , exporting hides and meat were legal ……. wasn't until they were recovered and growing in population before they started allowing eggs to be harvested , 1981 , which is where those farms get their alligators , they not breeding them …….and I don't believe farmed alligators were ever used to add to the wild population ? because they were never in that much trouble …….

the "American peregrine falcon recovery plans" , I believe there were 5 regional plans , were developed and implemented by the USFWS ………. none of it would have been possible without a federal ban on ddt like pesticides and insecticides …….. laws/regulations and enforcement are what saved peregrine falcons along with a bunch of fws biologist …… i'm confident it wasn't a bunch of random hobbyist , randomly letting birds go , if it was , what state ? and is there a record of it ………………. are a bunch of private hobbyist also responsible for the bald eagle ? the brown pelican ? osprey's? condors?

every resource needs regulated , or I guarantee you someone will abuse it , they always have ………...

You are wrong. You are reading what the government says about these events. Talk to the people who actually did it, do it.

All of the USFW programs for falconry were failing. Adult birds were either dying or failing to reproduce, because the USFW and their hired biologists knew nothing about raising, handling, housing, flying, maintaining or breeding falcons. When they let the birds into the private hands of falconers is when things turned around. This is actually something you learn about when becoming a falconer. It was actually a test question on the government issued falconry exam.

Likewise, all the bans on hunting alligators were completely ignored by the people who they were intended to stop. Alligator populations continued to decline, sharply, after the bans went into effect.

You believe what you want. If you think government is your friend and savior, I'll not be able to convince you otherwise. I've said it three or four times here on this thread. If you want to credit the government for the work and success of individual citizens, I can't stop you. I'll bet you think all the accredited AZA facilities are the best thing ever when it comes to breeding turtle tortoises and other reptiles too? Nothing good happening in the private sector there either, huh?

 

[mark1]

You are wrong. You are reading what the government says about these events. Talk to the people who actually did it, do it.

All of the USFW programs for falconry were failing. Adult birds were either dying or failing to reproduce, because the USFW and their hired biologists knew nothing about raising, handling, housing, flying, maintaining or breeding falcons. When they let the birds into the private hands of falconers is when things turned around. This is actually something you learn about when becoming a falconer. It was actually a test question on the government issued falconry exam.

Likewise, all the bans on hunting alligators were completely ignored by the people who they were intended to stop. Alligator populations continued to decline, sharply, after the bans went into effect.

You believe what you want. If you think government is your friend and savior, I'll not be able to convince you otherwise. I've said it three or four times here on this thread. If you want to credit the government for the work and success of individual citizens, I can't stop you. I'll bet you think all the accredited AZA facilities are the best thing ever when it comes to breeding turtle tortoises and other reptiles too? Nothing good happening in the private sector there either, huh?

FWS state and federal , there is plenty of documentation , I can find none for all those private programs , apparently you neither ?

how about condors ? osprey's ? bald eagles ? and brown pelicans ? all decimated at the same time , for the same reason , who was responsible for those recoveries ?

new York passed a law banning alligator skins , the lacey act was amended to include alligators , there became no place to legally sell hides ……….. no farm raised alligators were used in the recovery , the first farm raised alligators were released the year after they were de-listed as endangered ….. they're still poached today , do you know how much it cost to raise an 8 foot alligator ? do you know how much it cost to raise a wild killed 8 foot alligator ?
?

I am very much a conservative , as far as the government doing anything for me , I've done way more for them than they'll ever do for me in my lifetime ……... I think politician are straight up skill less , moronic pos …….. i'm just a realist ……

private folks would do a great disservice to the conservation of endangered turtles and tortoise by releasing the stuff they raise , or advocate such ……………

 

[Tom]

FWS state and federal , there is plenty of documentation , I can find none for all those private programs , apparently you neither ?

how about condors ? osprey's ? bald eagles ? and brown pelicans ? all decimated at the same time , for the same reason , who was responsible for those recoveries ?

new York passed a law banning alligator skins , the lacey act was amended to include alligators , there became no place to legally sell hides ……….. no farm raised alligators were used in the recovery , the first farm raised alligators were released the year after they were de-listed as endangered ….. they're still poached today , do you know how much it cost to raise an 8 foot alligator ? do you know how much it cost to raise a wild killed 8 foot alligator ?
?

I am very much a conservative , as far as the government doing anything for me , I've done way more for them than they'll ever do for me in my lifetime ……... I think politician are straight up skill less , moronic pos …….. i'm just a realist ……

private folks would do a great disservice to the conservation of endangered turtles and tortoise by releasing the stuff they raise , or advocate such ……………

Pick up any falconry book and you can read as much as you want about how the Peregrin falcon was saved from extinction by private breeders. A quick internet search will turn up plenty of reading material too. You can start here if you like: https://www.peregrinefund.org All the techniques for saving condors, osprey, ball eagles and other birds of prey have all come from the private sector. Just like tortoises. Ask Bill Z. what role the government and zoos have played in breeding endangered chelonians. How many baby Galapagos tortoises were produced in zoos over the last 20 years? Only Gladys Porter zoo has had any success. Yet, we now have at least 10 people producing them in the private sector. Prior to the 20 year dry spell on galop babies, all of them were produced in private hands.

Louisiana was releasing head started 4' alligators the first year their program went into effect back in the 60s or early 70s. That is why there were suddenly tens of thousands of them after a few years when there were only about 6000 left at the time the program started. I don't know what you don't understand about this. Bans on hunting did nothing. People ignored the new laws and continued exterminating the American alligator in Louisiana. They didn't suddenly recover because people stopped hunting. They recovered because the wildlife agencies started releasing thousands of head started four footers from all the licensed alligators ranchers. They were delisted years later because the numbers were so high. This was a direct result of private alligator farmers, not an end to hunting with a natural recovery.

We aren't talking about people willy nilly doing what they want here. People didn't breed falcons and then turn them loose. Nor did they do this with the alligators. We are talking about the success rate of private individuals vs. the dismal failure rate of zoos and government organizations when it comes to saving species.

 

[enchilada]

Ok this may sound very “political incorrect “ , but you guys never consider the huge difference in the ways general public’s view in conservation between US and Madagascar? Or wealthy First world country VS poor Third world country
Many things that are common practice in US won’t work at all in other parts of world .

That’s why I think commercial farming would be the only way to save radiata . Because no matter how many you released back to the wild , they’ll just end up on the local dinner tables because the Madagascar government is not gonna make sure it’s people can live a prosper life like the Americans .