Any greens choices high in calcium AND low in oxalates???

[Balboa]

Ok, we all know the standard "weed" diet in some form or another to feed our torts. Its supposed to be the "ideal"

it usually goes something like Dandelion, Plantain, Turnip Greens, Collard Greens, etc etc etc with a few adds or subtracts.

I've heard Collard Greens poo-poo'd before, too high in oxalates.

Then I learned today the tort super food dandelions needs to be limited because of oxalates. (thanks Danny)

Turns out Turnip Greens have oxalates too.

http://russiantortoise.org/nutritional_analysis_of_kale.htm

As this link points out, dandelions have twice the oxalates of kale, which is on many avoid lists for too much oxalates.

It looks to me like Calcium in plants goes hand in hand with oxalates.

Good nutritional information is hard to find in one place (and often is questionable, as to different growing conditions, misstakes, etc)

Remember growing up how we needed to eat our spinach for iron?

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/infosph...-created-a-myth-and-a-cartoon-character-10166

I learned to love spinach as an adult, but boy I hated that slop out of the can like Pop-eye ate.

Now so far it looks like Plantain is still safe and healthy to feed, I can't get that at the grocer though. I don't believe it is known for high calcium though either.

The remaining greens I know of as safe and high in calcium are grape leaves and hibiscus. Are these actually high in oxalates too? Something else bad?

Of course I'm aware that there is some discussion as to whether or not oxalates are even harmful at all to a healthy tortoise, and they MAY be able to better utilize this calcium source than we are. I do however like to stack the cards when I can when gambling on health.

Is there any truly, 100% safe green to feed our torts in high quantities for lots of calcium?

(maybe this should be debatables, but I'm not really looking for debates, just ideas from people that know more than I do about nutrition)

Thanks!

 

[Kristina]

Optunia

No, I don't advocate a "staple" green at all. This is why it is necessary to have a VARIED diet. There is no one particular superfood.

---

I would elaborate more but I am really tired and about ready to go home. I have spent years and years studying the nutritional breakdowns of various fruits, veggies and greens. I do have some charts that might help you get a visual.

http://tortnet.darchorizons.com/nutrition.html

 

[Madkins007]

Oxalate ratings vary by the tests used- what part of the plant and how processed.

Food item (100g)- Calcium level (mg)- Oxalates

Cactus fruit - 452 - no numbers found
Turnip Greens- 190 - 0.05
Dandelion Greens (not Chickory) - 187 - 0.02 (the stem with the white juice is very high in oxalates)
Green Beans - 170 - 0.02
Kelp - 168 - no numbers found
Cactus Pads - 164 - no numbers found
Collards - 145 - 0.07
Parsley - 138 - 0.10 (0.70 in some scales)
Kale - 135 - 0.02
Watercress - 120 - 0.02
Bok Choy - 105 - 0.02
Mustard Greens- 101 - 0.01
Chickory (often sold as Dandelion) - 100 - 0.21
Spinach - 99 - 0.61

I don't worry a lot about oxalates- there is very little clinical evidence they make as much difference as some claim although I try to avoid levels over about .7ish, and limit over about .5ish.

There is also something about the effects of vitamin A moderating the effects of oxylic acid, but I don't remember the details.

 

[pdrobber]

of course varied is good, but I've been wondering, I usually will just buy one head of romaine, or a bunch of collards or a bunch of kale, or a box of spring mix. do you think it's ok to give JUST one for about a week at a time and then switch? I find that trying to have a green and spring mix, giving them both, they don't go quickly enough and then go bad before I (Tori) finish(es) them...

 

[egyptiandan]

I totally agree No one thing should be relied on to feed your tortoise. Variety is the key to nutrition. You also don't need to give that variety every day. It's perfectly fine to feed just one thing each day. That way you know exactly what they are eating and how often. If your feeding a mixed salad, you don't know how much of which thing your tortoise is eating. Say you were being good and making a salad with Romaine, Dandelion, Opuntia, Plantains and Pansy flowers. Say you did this every day for a week. You are feeding a variety, but your tortoise may just be mostly eating the Dandelion out of the mix. So actually your feeding Dandelion 7 days and not actually a varied diet. This is where the problem comes in with feeding foods with oxalic acid, i.e. feeding it in a salad every day.
You can also make any green a super calcium food. Just put your cut up greens in a ziploc bag and shake with a calcium supplement. The greens will be nicely coated and will have the calcium content everyone is looking for.

Danny

---

The only study I've seen (it was for humans) that tried to limit the uptake of oxalic acid in the body. They found that taking a load of calcium before eating foods with oxalic acid in them prevent the body from absorbing the oxalic acid. This though makes more calcium oxalates, which seems to be easily passed by humans but tends to be stored in the bladder of reptiles.

Danny

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Bob is 12 years old now and I have had him since he was 5. I have made dandelions a diet staple and I don't see anything bad happening to him. He is so well hydrated that his urine is clear without even creamy urates. I don't like, so I avoid feeding dandelions to the smaller/younger tortoises due to the stem in the middle that they seem to have so much trouble breaking off. But I feed a variety with Spring Mix as the basis and I add different greens to that, and radicchio, I always add that. So I suppose that doesn't help you at all, but what I know is that I feed as wide a variety as I can and I don't much ever have my own personal animals get sick with anything I can blame on diet...
I get animals turned in to me regularly that have diet related problems...

 

[Balboa]

Hehe, thanks Kristina, and knew you'd have some input

I agree, and in reality I'm all about the variety as well, but when it turns out that ALL of the options are high in oxalates, its frustrating. It would be nice to have one that can be included more often than others.

Maybe I'll start growing some opuntia as well. Wasn't there some problem with that stuff too though? lol

Thanks for the chart, it does however highlight some of the problems I mentioned with all this.
Your chart says:
Turnip Greens = 50 mg
Kale = 20 mg
Watercress= 310 mg

Which is very different from the info from RussianTortoise.org
Turnip Greens = 14.6 mg
Kale = 13 mg
Watercress = 10 mg

I'm not saying who's right or wrong. It really does point to doing exactly what you say, variety over all, but it also makes me say ignore any suggestions and avoid nothing. Feed them everything in the grocery isle. (Well ideally I'd like to do that over the course of a year, but lets face it, staples of known goods are "easier" to focus on, as opposed to trying to pay attention to what your tortoises have or have not had over the course of a year)

One thing I learned in some reading on oxalates, is usually they are more predominant in younger plant parts than older. Perhaps rather than nice, tender, young greens we need to focus on getting old, tough, over-ripe greens.

---

WOW 4 responses while I was typing a response to Kristina, thanks guys!.

 

[Kristina]

Thanks for the chart, it does however highlight some of the problems I mentioned with all this.
Your chart says:
Turnip Greens = 50 mg
Kale = 20 mg
Watercress= 310 mg

Which is very different from the info from RussianTortoise.org
Turnip Greens = 14.6 mg
Kale = 13 mg
Watercress = 10 mg

I'm not saying who's right or wrong. It really does point to doing exactly what you say, variety over all, but it also makes me say ignore any suggestions and avoid nothing. Feed them everything in the grocery isle. (I totally, totally do!!!!) (Well ideally I'd like to do that over the course of a year, but lets face it, staples of known goods are "easier" to focus on, as opposed to trying to pay attention to what your tortoises have or have not had over the course of a year)

One thing I learned in some reading on oxalates, is usually they are more predominant in younger plant parts than older. Perhaps rather than nice, tender, young greens we need to focus on getting old, tough, over-ripe greens.

All of my nutritional analysis came directly from the USDA. That is all I can tell you about that. But again, tests are not only variable based on the test itself, the part of the plant, but also the GENETICS of the plant! There is no 100%, set in stone set of values for any one given food item.

What you are losing sight of is that a plant does not have to be both low in oxalates and high in calcium. Why not? Because you can FEED TWO DIFFERENT PLANTS. Find one that is low in oxalates, and rotate it with one that is high in calcium. Simple Or, dust the plant that is high in oxalates with calcium powder.

---

of course varied is good, but I've been wondering, I usually will just buy one head of romaine, or a bunch of collards or a bunch of kale, or a box of spring mix. do you think it's ok to give JUST one for about a week at a time and then switch? I find that trying to have a green and spring mix, giving them both, they don't go quickly enough and then go bad before I (Tori) finish(es) them...

In my opinion, this is not only fine, but the best way to do it.

I wrote an article on this, and instead of retype all the information I am just going to post the link -

Nutritional Considerations for Tortoises - The "Balanced" Diet Revealed.

 

[Balboa]

In different ideas bounced back and forth before between me and mark, I came to look at grape leaves as a "super" food. Unfortunatly, I have no local grocers carrying them. I will be planting grapes this spring.

Now where is the grape leaf's achilles heal? I have yet to see it noted for Oxalates. Hibiscus as well. May be there though, just not noted anywhere.

If I refocus my thought process here a little bit.... Variety is only good if there is actual variety TO the variety. If two plant leaves have exactly the same ingredients what does it matter that they taste/look different? It looks more and more like the typical "variety" of greens I feed yields no useful variety at all. (well sure, there are likely slightly varied levels of other minerals and vitamins, but they all usually have ballpark similair nutritional values averaged out over different lists).

A better Variety may be more like, 1 week grape leaves, 1 week plantain, 1 week opuntia, 1 week mushrooms, 1 week oxalate greens, 1 week hibiscus, 1 week vegies (carrots, beans, etc), and on and on.

I know, maybe I'm overthinking this, but I'm discovering my "staple" varieties I strive to provide aren't much of a variety at all, now are they? frustrating.

 

[bettinge]

Oxalate ratings vary by the tests used- what part of the plant and how processed.

Food item (100g)- Calcium level (mg)- Oxalates

Cactus fruit - 452 - no numbers found
Turnip Greens- 190 - 0.05
Dandelion Greens (not Chickory) - 187 - 0.02 (the stem with the white juice is very high in oxalates)
Green Beans - 170 - 0.02
Kelp - 168 - no numbers found
Cactus Pads - 164 - no numbers found
Collards - 145 - 0.07
Parsley - 138 - 0.10 (0.70 in some scales)
Kale - 135 - 0.02
Watercress - 120 - 0.02
Bok Choy - 105 - 0.02
Mustard Greens- 101 - 0.01
Chickory (often sold as Dandelion) - 100 - 0.21
Spinach - 99 - 0.61

I don't worry a lot about oxalates- there is very little clinical evidence they make as much difference as some claim although I try to avoid levels over about .7ish, and limit over about .5ish.

There is also something about the effects of vitamin A moderating the effects of oxylic acid, but I don't remember the details.

Enough is enough Madkins! If I keep printing all your good food and Nutritional information and tacking it to my office walls, I'm gonna need a bigger office. A bigger office means room for more torts.

 

[SILVERSTAR]

why is the cactus fruit the highest in sumthing,i dont know wut its high in but its like 452? wuts that all about?

 

[Balboa]

That's calcium to oxalates, silverstar.

More and more I'm reading, I'm starting to say toss it all to the wind, dietary guides are useless.

Turns out Cactus (opuntia) may not be a great source of calcium either. Its considered not bio-available because its tied up as, guess what? calcium oxalates. I think that's where much of the confusion stems from.

How much of each does the plant contain?
Calcium
Oxalates
Calcium Oxalate Crystals

Turns out no plants likely contain high "bio-available" calcium, because that's essentially toxic to the plant (interferes with cell function). Plants form the oxalates to store the excess calcium. This means that chances are, any plant capable of being high in calcium, is also likely high in oxalates. The ratio will be established by how its grown. Calcium poor soil yields high oxalates, calcium rich soil yields high calcium oxalates.

really need to talk with a botanist/biologist/horticulturalist or the like about this lol.

so forget everything we've been told about nutrition (except Kristina's variety) and shop for tort food blind folded. Just throw a dart in the grocery store and wherever it lands, bring that home. (I guess if it lands on a person, that's protein week)

 

[SILVERSTAR]

lol,lol, well not to be off topic but if that cactus fruit is that high in calcium crystals i may have jus found my problem cus for the past id say week and a half hes been piggn out on that stuff which i was told was ok to feed jus prolly not as much as i have been.could be why my tortoise had urate stones,ya think,i didnt realize that fruit was that powerful,i think from not on ill jus give it as occasional treat,also hes addicted to it,its all he looks for,i think its detox time lol.

 

[Torty Mom]

I was under the assumption that green beans were NOT good to feed? They are just a tad different than dandelion.

Does anyone feed their CDT's green beans?

Lisa's Tort Elliott LOVES green beans, but she was NOT going to feed them anymore as she had heard they were bad for him!

 

[SILVERSTAR]

i heard the same thing about green beans but also i read sumwhere about star tortoises gettn mangled but farm equipment in indias long bean fields and about farmers treating the tortoises like nusances over there cuz they were eatn the crop,the farmers killed tortoises over it,i swear i read that sumwhere an it stuck in my head,prolly a stab in the dark as to wether or not torts eat beans.

 

[Balboa]

I believe the trouble with beans (and all legumes) is considered the high protein content. Protein has been blamed as the cause of pyramiding for a long time (something now being refuted).

Too much protein could be harmful however, as it can lead to gout and renal problems.

I'd say beans should be a part of the diet, but probably a very small part. Like Kristina says, some of EVERYTHING.

 

[dmmj]

I have used grape leaves now for almost ten years as a staple in my tort's diet. But I usually feed a variety, and yes I use dandelions heavily since I grow my own and found a steady supply of it nearby.

 

[SILVERSTAR]

Ive heard the grape leaves thing quite a few times,is there a certain kind i should buy?

 

[Torty Mom]

Silverstar do you grow any of your own stuff?

 

[dmmj]

I have 3 grape plants, a Thompson seedless, Merlot, and a red fiery grape plant.