Are Leopard Tortoises Shy?

In general do you find Leopard tortoises to be a shy species?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 10 28.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 6 17.1%
  • Maybe. Sometimes. It depends on a lot of factors...

    Votes: 19 54.3%

  • Total voters
    35
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Tom

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This has been bugging me for a while. Its just a general question. This is not to say that every single leopard that has ever existed is shy. I've seen lots of them that were fairly outgoing and unafraid. Generally, however, I find they tend to be a bit reclusive and uninterested in interaction. I'm not talking about somebodies single personal pet that was hand fed every day and raised in the backyard. I'm talking about the species in general. Feel free to make a distinction between the two subspecies that are available here in the US, if you wish. I see a HUGE difference between the two. With all the mixing of the types that have been imported in the past, I wonder how many "friendly" babcocki are actually hybrids. I've seen a number of cases of known hybrids that were very friendly. When I hear about very large or very friendly babcocki, I always wonder if there might be some pp mixed in there somewhere. Really the only way to know for sure is to know the origin of the parents. This is only rarely possible.
 

Az tortoise compound

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Tom said:
This has been bugging me for a while. Its just a general question. This is not to say that every single leopard that has ever existed is shy. I've seen lots of them that were fairly outgoing and unafraid. Generally, however, I find they tend to be a bit reclusive and uninterested in interaction. I'm not talking about somebodies single personal pet that was hand fed every day and raised in the backyard. I'm talking about the species in general. Feel free to make a distinction between the two subspecies that are available here in the US, if you wish. I see a HUGE difference between the two. With all the mixing of the types that have been imported in the past, I wonder how many "friendly" babcocki are actually hybrids. I've seen a number of cases of known hybrids that were very friendly. When I hear about very large or very friendly babcocki, I always wonder if there might be some pp mixed in there somewhere. Really the only way to know for sure is to know the origin of the parents. This is only rarely possible.
Tom,
In my opinion, you are perpetuating a myth. I can understand you having that opinion but, you blanket the species too often.
Maybe, it's the fact you are around hatchlings more so than adults? It is all really individual personality in the end.
 

Tom

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Az tortoise compound said:
Tom,
In my opinion, you are perpetuating a myth. I can understand you having that opinion but, you blanket the species too often.
Maybe, it's the fact you are around hatchlings more so than adults? It is all really individual personality in the end.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion Mick. And that's why this thread is in the debatable section. Everyone should feel free to share theirs. I base my opinion on 20 years of seeing, keeping and experiencing leopards of all age groups in many situations ranging from a single backyard pet, to major breeding operations to major import/wholesale companies. I also happen to share this opinion with lots of people who are much more experienced than me. I agree with you that they each have their own personality, but I don't understand the problem with generalizations. I once had not one, but TWO, scrub pythons that were as tame as any common Boa constrictor. It does not change the fact that most of the time scrubs are pretty nasty and bitey. So it didn't bother me when somebody would say that scrubs are horrible nasty snakes. Mine weren't. Same with the leopards. I know of several very friendly and outgoing leopards right here on the forum, but MOST of them are not that way. So I honestly don't think its a myth. It is what I have personally observed. Just to make sure that I'm not crazy or somehow deluding myself, I've been emailing and phoning the people on the planet who I know that know the most about leopards and have the most experience with them. I'm talking about long term breeders, wholesalers, keepers, importers, etc. People that like me have had their hands on leopards for 20 years or more. Lots of leopards. Hundreds or thousands in some cases. So far I have asked 7 people. Five have answered me as of right now and all five said, "Yes." to the question: "Are leopard torts generally a shy species?" Or something very similar. Three of the five volunteered on their own that the pp are not generally shy at all, and are totally different than the babcocki. I did not bring up the subspecies differentiations. They did.

To elaborate on the whole "bugging" me thing. What I mean is that I know what I know. The sky is blue, the sea is wet, and leopard tortoises are shy. I can't understand the resistance to this idea. There are exceptions to all three things I listed above, but most of the time the sky is blue here. It might be gray on the rare rainy day, but its blue again the next day. I don't have any problem with someone saying "The sky is blue.", even though technically it is NOT all blue every single day.
 

onarock

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I just asked 20 people. All of them in the reptile business for 20+ years. Most of them in Socal. and 15 said it depends on the animal. What I didnt ask, is those who import. Im not asking people who open boxes of tortoises put them in large crates and let people sort through them (L.A. Reptile, Cal Zoo) I know the owners of both of those Large importers and I got news for ya'... they dont know alot about reptiles and/or tortoises. They buy and sell, thats it. I'm a breeder and so is Mick.... what say you? You say youve had your hands on them for 20 years. Where are your long term adults? Where are your hatchlings? And not the ones someone left for you to watch. Why is it when I read your early posts, you make no mention of any of this, and about a year ago you were on here looking for someone that breeds gpp and now your a leopard expert that has had his hands on hundreds or even thousands. I dont think its right that for you to rant like that in responce to Micks post and embelish your experience. All anyone has to do is read your early posts. Why is that you need to set yourself apart from the board. Sorry that none of us are worthy. Im starting to wonder why you started this thread to begin with. If someone differs in opinion you just dismiss them and start talking about "people on the planet that you know, know the most about leopards." I would like to know who these people are... chances are I might already know them. You just wrote me an hour ago stating that your opinion is just as valid as mine, I beg to differ. So what makes these experts of yours opinion more valid than mine or Micks. Mick doesnt share his experience alot here on TFO, but I can tell you this, I have spoke to him on the phone a few times and the guy knows what hes talking about. What does it take? 20+ years of keeping and producing, you hold all of us to higher standard than you hold yourself. You write stuff to John (squamata) like "there are 3-4 of us working on those questions right now, we should have some answers for you in a couple months" What?


All tortoises should be judged on a case by case basis. I just sent 18 gpb across the country. Ask any of those who got them how shy they are. I think some posted about that very thing already. I have about 33 here with more popping out EVERY day. To be honest, I have not 1 shy gpb hatchling. Ah, but what do I know? I just SWIM in leopard tortoises year after year. How about you?
 

John

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Well, Tom I don't have the experience with leopards that Paul and Mick do, but I do have 19 hatchlings right now, Are they shy, NO, Are they some times instinctivly protective? Yes, Meaning they will hide at first site of me the giant looking into the pen but quickly go on with thier business, of the 19 only my suspected hybrid hisses and shells in when picked up, The animals I recieved from Paul all were eating from my hand 4-6 hours after they came out of the box, they are not coddled pets, just healthy well started, well cared for animals. Maybe yours are shy because everytime they see you ,you are blitzing them with a spray bottle like some form of water torture, where as when my animals see me they are being hand cared for in some way, feeding, soaking, being cleaned and what not. Tom I have to say I find it puzzling, your claim of experience, It just does not add up, In your intro thread in jan 2010 there is a mention of a box turtle and four sulcatas and then a mere 7 months later you claim up to 30 years of experience working with leopards, I mean I can understand resume' fluffing to a degree but.........
 

Greg T

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I'll base my answer on my 3 leos and say they do appear to be more shy than other torts. However, I do think the shyness goes away once they feel comfortable around the people they know. Mine will tend to go away when strangers are present, but they will come to me and my kids when we're out in the yard, probably just expecting food though. :p
 

Neal

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I would have liked a more subjective option, instead of two "yes" answers. I did not want to say yes or no, I wanted to say as always that each tortoise is different, so I think this poll may only show you want you expect it will show you. But, who are the people responding to this poll? People who have had hands on experience with leopards? That would help make it more valid I think if only the people who have leopards responded.

I'm sorry Tom, with all due respect, can't you see from this thread alone that there are quite a few people saying that leopard tortoises DO have personality, and dissagree with your generalities of them being shy? Three of the four of us who have said so are breeders, with more than 2 adults, and a number of hatchlings, and years of experience. Not to mention all of the other comments saying the same things on other threads right here on this forum. I am not seeing how the opinions of people who have been doing things "wrong" for so many years have any more credibility than those who are doing things "right" for all to see on this forum.
 

Yvonne G

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At one time I had an adult group of 2.4 babcock. I had a hard time selling the babies, so I adopted out the males and kept 2 females. I also kept the first hatchling from the group, turned out to be male and is now 4 or 5 years old. Speaking from MY experience of appx. 8 years with this group of babcock tortoises, yes, they are shy.

If my tortoises saw me they all hunkered down into their shells. The only time I ever got to see them moving or eating was if I sneaked up on them and peaked around the corner. Its still the same way now, with the smaller group that I have.

Can I speak to the species as a whole? No, but I really never thought that my group was different from the species. I just assumed they were all the same.
 

wildponey21

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I cut the nails on a leo that was 10 years old and he was vary out going. he walk all the room and let rub his head and pet his legs. he was very nice and like all love.
 

Tom

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Paul, I've told you repeatedly privately, and I'll now tell you publicly. Leave me alone. I'm not interested in any interaction with you. You will find fault with anything I say, and frankly I've had enough of your your insults, harassment and lies.

John, glad to hear about your experience with Paul's hatchlings. That is the purpose of this thread. As far as embellishment goes, nothing has changed. I did not list every single chelonian I had ever worked with for my entire life in my intro thread. I've said it before and I'll repeat here since you are clearly questioning whether I'm telling the truth. I got my first box turtle in 1979. I started working in a pet store in 1986. We had lots of reptiles, including tortoises. Since that time I have worked with tortoises in some capacity or other, continuously and so do a lot of the people that I interact with daily. I saw the first hatchling leopard that I can clearly remember in 1991 and have been working with them and around them since then. I don't have adults for two reasons. 1. Their personalities were very shy. This was especially apparent when my sulcatas were marching around in the enclosure right next to them. 2. I could not grow one even remotely smooth due to ignorance. This was extremely frustrating for me since I was reading all the books, magazines and following all the "expert" advice. So for a lot years I just maintained my little herd of small pyramided sulcatas. Doesn't mean I never saw another leopard. I see other people's all the time. I was not interested in keeping my own again until I finally found a source for true Gpp, which, in my opinion, have a very different personality than the Gpb. So no embellishment. Just facts, despite what my self-appointed arch-nemesis would like you to believe.

Yes Neal, I CAN see that. I've heard it from you and several others here on the forum for some time now. I just don't see it myself in person. That is the purpose of the poll and the thread. To see how lots and lots of people feel about this. I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum. In my own experience, everyone I have asked says yes they are shy. But here on the forum, it seems some people think they are not, and some, like you and Mick see it as an individual thing. I'm trying to learn, as usual, from the vast wealth of knowledge here on the forum. That is why I say, and honestly mean, thank you to you, Mick, Yvonne, Greg and anyone else who will chime in and share their experience without the personal attacks and insults.
 

yagyujubei

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I answered maybe, because I can only speak from my experience. My big spp female is very friendly, and will come over to me when she sees me, and when I pick her up, she struggles rather than closes up. My biggest babcocki female (13")is also very personable. At the sound of my voice, she will always turn her head to look, and will usually come over to me. I will have to say that they are equally friendly towards me. My 11" female and 10" male babcocki are a little more reserved. The 6" babcocki is indifferent to me. None of my little spp would I call shy. I think that with much human interaction, they become less cautious of humans. Are they more shy than box turtles? Without a doubt. Are they a "shy species" I can't say.
 

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Just another anecdote for the subject:

Several years ago my club here in Fresno went on a field trip up to the Bay Area to visit Ginger Wilfong. She and her husband operate the Bay Area Turtle & Tortoise Rescue in Hayward, CA.

Ginger keeps a wide variety of turtles and tortoises including some adult sulcata, Manouria, russians, box turtles, different kinds of water turtles and more that I can't remember.

We were a group of about 20 people. Each species of tortoise was in its own habitat and we were allowed to step over the fences and see and touch. But, there was a path or walkway between the habitats.

Ginger had a very large male leopard tortoise named George who had the run of the property. He was the largest leopard I've ever seen, but I'm only guessing at his weight of about 35 or 40lbs. George followed our group of people wherever we went. And when we sat down for "tea," he was right there at our feet pestering us for a scritch or tidbit of food.

George was the MOST outgoing tortoise I've ever seen...of any species.
 

Neal

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Great story Yvonne, I would really like to see George.

It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly.

Perhaps this is worthy of an experiment...to see if an initally shy tortoise will warm up to people if it is primarily hand fed.
 

ChiKat

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Neal said:
It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly.

Great point. My Russian seems incredibly fearless and I have always considered him to be "outgoing" because he runs towards me when he sees me. But I guarantee he is just looking for food :rolleyes:

People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
Maybe Leopards are just more polite :D
 

Neal

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ChiKat said:
People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
Maybe Leopards are just more polite :D

lol, good point. I think personality is a pretty complex thing, and not just cut and dry - they have it or they don't - kinda thing.
 

Fernando

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Tom said:
I too would hope someone with little or no leopard experience would not chime in here, but I think some of that is unavoidable on a public forum.

ChiKat said:
Neal said:
It seems a lot of what we see with tortoise personality is the tortoises associating people with food, so once that happens they will be more eager to approach a human and appear more friendly.
People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
Maybe Leopards are just more polite :D

Neal said:
ChiKat said:
People might not consider their Leopards to be shy, but when compared to crazy, attention-seeking Sulcatas, Leopards might seem more reserved.
Maybe Leopards are just more polite :D

lol, good point. I think personality is a pretty complex thing, and not just cut and dry - they have it or they don't - kinda thing.

I don't really chime in on debates. But, I think that it's the unbiased opinions of others, that we learn a lot from. I like that answer Katie.
 

onarock

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Okay guys, this may be a debate thread, but the debate is about the leopards, not each other. From this thread on, I will be deleting things. Let's go back to topic.
 

Neal

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Everybody read this post and take it to heart. Thanks for wriitng it too!

...Jacqui


Alright, well I think we just need to all step back and remember what we are doing here.

We're here for our tortoises, to help better understand them from the experiences of others. We all have strong opinions and egos (myself included), but we gotta seperate the emotion from the opinion otherwise we get upset like what's going on here. Really, what does any of these personal issues matter in the long run?

I hate to see Paul, John, Tom, or anyone banned or not contribute on this forum anymore. I think this community would suffer greatly if that were to happen. I am happy to see the pride of people on this forum, I wonder what we could accomplish here if we set that asside and worked with each other.

(sorry to be off topic, but I think the above was appropriate here)
 

Tom

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Very mature of you Neal and I agree. Jacqui deleting away again...
 

Edna

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Very limited experience here - 2 Gpp that are now 10 months old. To me the meaning of the word shy falls somewhere between "fearful" and "slow to warm up." My youngsters are not shy. They are reserved, polite as Katie said. They have age-appropriate confidence. With greater size and experience, I can imagine them even more confident.
 
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