Are tortoises a wise investment

[Redfoot NERD]

Since there is such controversy about WC.. where would you get your "PETS" if it weren't for breeders????? Aren't we being a little "self-righteous" when it comes to profit? Not all breeders are greedy.. in fact the reasons I decided to make my 'passion' into a business -

1) the greedy ones who don't care about the tortoises.. so they sell/ship too-young and sick animals.. and you come to me/and others for help. [ Have we not offered our help.. even tho you bought from someone else? ]

2) the out-dated "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush" so-called caresheets out there.. so you come to me/and others for help. [ to try to "undo" what has been done as a result ]

And I'm glad.. is anyone else?

Nerd

 

[stells]

I have friends who are breeders so i am not against i think you will find i said some attitudes put me off breeding.

That attitude being that just because someone has come on here and said they are not getting a profit from this, then they must be lying.. how rude is that??

How some people have posted things makes it sound like they aren't going to be passionate unless the animal pays for itself.. so what if they don't??... do those animals then get discarded

If you are a business does that not open you up to all kind of laws to obide and taxes to pay??

Some breeders i know personally would rather give away a hatchling or two if they know the home that its going to is a good one rather than take the money and the tortoise land up in a lower quality home

If you are going to be getting more "expensive" tortoises are you going to check out every single home they go to and make sure they have researched the species and what care is needed esp. if we are talking a more specialised species.

Yes i probably will breed tortoises in the future, but as the only adult pair i have are both hard to match males, and the rest range from a few months old up to 5 years old i have a while to wait yet and by that time i will be well out of pocket if we have to talk money.


Terry sorry your last post made no sense to me whatsoever...

 

[egyptiandan]

I'll be glad to run with your example Vince Lets say for the $5,000 you get 10 animals, 3 males and 7 females. It's good your in Florida Vince as you'd need to have all the males seperate. The females, with a big enough enclosure, should be fine, but no guarantees.
Now for the breeding, Elongated tortoises are extremely violent breeders, so there will be vet visits for some of the females. Most likely a few every year. Than eggs, females usually average 3 eggs per clutch and 2 to 3 clutches a year. This is once they have settled in. Also all female in a large group may not lay every year.
Lets say you get 4 females to double clutch and they lay 5 eggs each (a 3 and a 2 egg clutch). That makes 20 eggs. You have an 80% fertility rate, 16 eggs fertile. You have a great hatch rate and hatch 15 eggs.
Right now hatchlings are running about $100 each and don't seem to be in high demand, so you sell 10 this year.
Thats $1,000., you have to hold onto the 5 till next year. If you have a better year next year and get 20 hatchlings. You will now have to sell 25 in a year. Maybe you have a better year and sell 15, leaving you with 10.
It could get over whelming really quickly and you have to wholesale them to make room. You will be getting maybe $50 each if you do.
So it's possible to get your money back, be quicker for you Vince with little overhead. This is barring losing females for any number of reasons, egg binding being one.

Danny

 

[Yvonne G]

I didn't think we were talking about people who breed tortoises for a living. The original question was something to the effect of will I make money if I breed my tortoises? And I think the majority of people who breed tortoises do not make money. When I had leopards, I had 4 females and two males. I had three incubators full of leopard eggs. And I had about a 90% hatch rate. I had so many babies they were "coming out my ears!!" I had a real hard time finding buyers. I sold a few to folks here on the forum, but absolutely NONE to anyone here in my city or my geographical area. And the classified ads I placed came to over $100 over time. So, I bred tortoises. A popular breed of tortoise. But there is no way I would have been able to make any money at it. People are not breaking down doors to buy the end product, and that's the name of the game in you are going to make money. I even sent about 25 leopard babies to a friend back east who thought he would be better able to find buyers for them. He had them for almost a year, selling one here and one there.

If you want to make money at it, and I hesitate to say this out loud, get a pair of Sulcata. Your female will have sometimes 3 or 4 clutches per year with around 25 or 50 eggs per clutch. Find an outlet overseas, say, Japan. They will take as many babies as you can hatch.

There probably is money to be made, but the average Joe or Susie Cream Cheese, who has a pair of any kind of tortoise, will not make money at it...but they will get quite a bit of enjoyment out of the wonders of nature, watching the egg laying process, the hatching and caring for the babies.

Yvonne

 

[terryo]

Since there is such controversy about WC.. where would you get your "PETS" if it weren't for breeders????? Aren't we being a little "self-righteous" when it comes to profit? Not all breeders are greedy.. in fact the reasons I decided to make my 'passion' into a business -

1) the greedy ones who don't care about the tortoises.. so they sell/ship too-young and sick animals.. and you come to me/and others for help. [ Have we not offered our help.. even tho you bought from someone else? ]

2) the out-dated "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush" so-called caresheets out there.. so you come to me/and others for help. [ to try to "undo" what has been done as a result ]

And I'm glad.. is anyone else?

Nerd

I have nothing to add about breeding tortoises, as I only have one, for a pet nothing more, but find this thread very interesting.....but....Nerd, what are you talking about? You don't seem to be making any sense with this post.

 

[spikethebest]

a little off topic, my 401K has dropped 20% in the past 2 weeks, so yes, i think tortoises are wise investments. they are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them, and not dependent on consumer confidence, greed, corporate america, bailouts, presidental elections, the american media, or inflation.

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

Thanks for that run down danny. (ps if you ever see any for 50 bucks let me know ! )

I like what spikesthebest said (sorry I dont know your name) 401k's are dropping, stocks are dropping, realistate is droping but it seems tortoises are the same price (for the most part) as a couple years ago.

The question came up becasue I had saved money and wanted to invest in somthing rather then looking at a number on a bank statement.

 

[Marla]

If a program is correctly set up, breeding could be a wise investment..The only problem you will face is age..To really understand and care for these wonderful animals takes years of living with them....studing them in their habitat and understanding the diseases that face each one in different ways...I suggest investing time in educating yourself in the field and then hope all goes right in the breeding area...I know of only one successful breeder in Arizona..there are some that follow, but no one tops Richard Fifes breeding program..25 years ago he was just touching ground and it took him years till he created Ivory Tortoises...He truly worked his way to the top...It took years...If you believe in breeding for money with tortoises then I suggest you not look for a quick dollar, start young and don't give up....Its a slow process....Now a tortoise broker is another story all together...

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

Nah I woundnt want to broker animals. I am a hobbyist pure and simple. I would however love to breed my tortoises and make some money from selling babies. I think captive breeding in one of the high points of our joyful hobby. A misconception about the issue of investment like marla suggested when she said quick dollar I think is off base. Because most wise investments are long term.

By the way check out kingnsake.com there is a guy running an ad for leopard tortoises, its something like
leopard tortoises vs the stock market. Using the example of how much leopard tortoises increase in value from hatchling to say 5 years old.

I think I am going to put this to the test. I am however going to wait untill I can find some quality elongated tortoises or maybe a nice group of yellow foots. And invest about 2,000. And track it over four years.

 

[-EJ]

My guess is that you asked the question knowing darn well what the answer was.

If you invest in a known breeding group and you know they are going to continue to produce... yup they are a good investment. Talk to they guy who picked up the group of Egyptians and jacked the market to over $500 a piece for the babies. If you invest wisely you can make money at the deal.

Are tortoises a good investment ? With all types of crazy things going on with our economy is it a wise investment to purchase expensive tortoises? I am of course speaking of buying animals to breed and sell babies. No buying a pet or two.

 

[tortoise_addict]

There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly.
2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home.

No matter how you look at it its all in what you choose to do. Some are better at maximizing profits then others. Some could probably make more profit on it but refuse to drop there level of care and quality that goes into each animal.
It all depends on your business sense and how you market and move your product.
It will only be an investment if you know how to make it an investment. You have to know where, when and how to market your product. It can be successful and can be a loss. Just like any investment its a gamble.
Some people fail to realize that when they pay overhead its steady and smaller amounts are spent at a steady rate. When they do finally sell a animal they get a chunk in at one time. A lot of people fail to realize exactly how much is put in the overhead of caring for the animals and usually its a wash and most people sell one animal and think it can be profitable.
I say sell an animal and with that money try raising your breeders/babies with that money only and see how long it lasts you and how big of a profit it really is. Its only a profit when you can pocket the difference with not strings attached.

This was a great topic and conversation. I liked reading everyones thoughts.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

There are 'truths' in each and all of what you just said addict.

Most don't realize how much it does cost to care for a 'group' of breeding size adults. I once commented that any dummy can breed redfoot tortoises.

Anyone who has read my "Breeding Notes on Geochelone carbonaria" remembers when a water turtle breeder friend said - “Not any dummy can re-create the environment and conditions necessary to keep tortoises healthy and happy enough to produce viable offspring consistently, the way you do”. http://turtletary.com/gcarbonariabreeding.doc

And then the work begins. Getting the hatchlings "started" so the new owners only have to duplicate the "housing/diet" NEEDS.. so the process will begin again.

And getting the new owner to follow those "guidelines" is not an easy task either!

Another part of making a beloved "hobby" profitable IS making it a business!!! It is quite amazing how much can be written off as business expenses.

So yes there are a FEW of us that have and will make a profit.. that never get tired of feeling the baby squirm in the egg.. watch it struggle to get out of the egg.. take it's first bite.. have someone reply to an ad. saying they want to pay for a hatchling that hasn't hatched yet.. having them post that their new hatchling "ate-right-out-of-the-box".. repeat and referral business [ knowing your babies are going to good homes ].. and watching a few "keepers" grow up to start the whole process all over again - knowing you've done something right.

All of the above takes years of WORK! Worth every drop of blood.. sweat.. and tears!!!

Redfoot NERD

 

[Marla]

There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly.
2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home.

No matter how you look at it its all in what you choose to do. Some are better at maximizing profits then others. Some could probably make more profit on it but refuse to drop there level of care and quality that goes into each animal.
It all depends on your business sense and how you market and move your product.
It will only be an investment if you know how to make it an investment. You have to know where, when and how to market your product. It can be successful and can be a loss. Just like any investment its a gamble.
Some people fail to realize that when they pay overhead its steady and smaller amounts are spent at a steady rate. When they do finally sell a animal they get a chunk in at one time. A lot of people fail to realize exactly how much is put in the overhead of caring for the animals and usually its a wash and most people sell one animal and think it can be profitable.
I say sell an animal and with that money try raising your breeders/babies with that money only and see how long it lasts you and how big of a profit it really is. Its only a profit when you can pocket the difference with not strings attached.

This was a great topic and conversation. I liked reading everyones thoughts.

Nicely said...

 

[REDFOOTMATT]

There are 3 different levels to breeding any animals.
1) Straight up business. These are the people who only think about a profit and the best way to maximize that profit. If done correct then you can make quite a bit of money. You can not have any emotional attachments to your animals. Kinda like herp puppy mills. You can make a big profit if you know how and cut corners. That is with torts too if you know how to do it correctly.
2) Hobbyist breeder. Someone who starts out with a love for the animal and eventually ends up breeding. Some are able to make what they put in and maybe a little more. Some make a very small profit but its ok because your loved pets are paying there way and its what you love to do.
3) Strictly pet owner. Would never even consider thinking of there pets as a investment or breeding them. They usually think the people who do breed are not as good a owner. They are usually the ones that fail to realize how that loved pet came about to live in there home.

No matter how you look at it its all in what you choose to do. Some are better at maximizing profits then others. Some could probably make more profit on it but refuse to drop there level of care and quality that goes into each animal.
It all depends on your business sense and how you market and move your product.
It will only be an investment if you know how to make it an investment. You have to know where, when and how to market your product. It can be successful and can be a loss. Just like any investment its a gamble.
Some people fail to realize that when they pay overhead its steady and smaller amounts are spent at a steady rate. When they do finally sell a animal they get a chunk in at one time. A lot of people fail to realize exactly how much is put in the overhead of caring for the animals and usually its a wash and most people sell one animal and think it can be profitable.
I say sell an animal and with that money try raising your breeders/babies with that money only and see how long it lasts you and how big of a profit it really is. Its only a profit when you can pocket the difference with not strings attached.

This was a great topic and conversation. I liked reading everyones thoughts.

Wow, this topic has stirred up quite a little frenzy. I love it! I would be level #2. A hobbyist breeder. I do it for the Reptile addiction so many of us have. I never got into it for greed, I just loved watching things hatch. I am quite sure that Tortoises could be a good investment if you have put in the years of sweat and learning and have everything dialed in like some of you guys obviously do. That does not make you "greedy" unless maybe you are at that level #1. I've made a a lot of $ over the years on various reptile breeding in consideration of the cost of food, electricity ect. But if I were to add the equation of my time (even minimum wage pay) I probably would be in the "red" profit wise. But I didn't ever go into it full scale. I always had a day job. I wonder if you guys considered all your hours caring, researching ect. as overhead? If you were to add that in as a direct cost (just for fun) how did your profits look? I do believe if it wasn't for the breeders out there our wild populations would suffer horribly (so don't hate the breeders). I admire guys like Terry who have such a passion for producing such quality animals and sharing his knowledge and experience with everyone just so the animals can benefit from better health. This has been an interesting post though.