Are tortoises a wise investment

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Ozric

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I have a friend in Germany who has Moroccan tortoises. She has allowed them to breed twice. She does not let them breed most years because there are not enough people who are willing/able to provide adequately for them in terms of the environment they need. She doesn't want to breed animals that would die.

I might do a little Western Hermann breeding one day, but already I worry about finding people who would go to the expense and trouble to keep one warm enough, provide outside facilities so that it can have decent quality of life. Lots of people I know are interested in a tortoise, but when I tell them what I do to replicate the mediterranean in Scotland its obvious they think I'm mad. Maybe there is money to be made breeding tortoises - but not here. Here they make money importing them cheap from eastern europe and selling them with false information. A lot of them don't make it.
 

gtm

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Over here in the UK there is'nt the avaliability you have in the States. If you could successfully breed more unusual tortoises - ie Golden Greeks, Radiated, Egyptians then you could make.

I recently saw an ad for egyptian hatchlings for £1100 ($2000) each. It is possible to make money:)
 

Redfoot NERD

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egyptiandan said:
I think Yvonne covered it very well :D, but if it was missed. Tortoises are NOT a good investment. :p The prices of most tortoises has fallen recently. Thats say you could afford, say an adult pair of Radiated tortoises, a fairly high end tortoise. You would have to set them up right. Than getting them to breed and lay eggs for you. Okay you've done that. With these tortoises you've limited your market to in state people if you don't have a permit, that's say you do have a permit. That gives you out of state sales and in state sales. Now you have to find people with $1,000 burning a hole in their pocket, in this economy, looking to buy a tortoise. They are few and far between and there are already established breeders that will likely get the business first.
So all in all not the place to invest money.

Danny

Nowhere did anyone suggest or imply that Vince was asking about high-dollar [ endangered ] tortoises. Those [ obviously ] are not good investments.. bad analogy ( example ).

Send me all of yours Danny and I'll show you how to make money at it. Either you're not doing something right.. [ and we know you are ] or you're not being straight with us. HUH?

Terry K
 

Yvonne G

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Redfoot NERD said:
Send me all of yours Danny and I'll show you how to make money at it. Either you're not doing something right.. [ and we know you are ] or you're not being straight with us. HUH?

Terry K

I don't think anyone would disagree that there is money to be made if you work at it and conditions are right, but the questions was, "Are tortoises a WISE investment?" My answer still stands: No tortoises are NOT a WISE investment.

Yvonne
 

egyptiandan

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Terry your not reading again :p Here is Vince's first post

Are tortoises a good investment ? With all types of crazy things going on with our economy is it a wise investment to purchase expensive tortoises? I am of course speaking of buying animals to breed and sell babies. No buying a pet or two.

I hate to burst your bubble, but I don't make any money selling tortoises. Just for the heck of it I figured out roughly what I spend monthly. This doesn't include new lights, containers, new pens outside or anything else that needs replacing. I spend $850 a month on the tortoises, not including the box turtles :p

I still have tortoises from last year for sale, who I will never make money on. I'm trying to get $80 each for them and they aren't selling. I easily have $400 each into them if not more.

The Spider tortoise hatchlings I have been selling aren't mine and I only make a very small amout of each sale. I do it to help a friend who doesn't have the time to deal with the public.

I'd rather send you my bills than my tortoises, Terry :D

Danny
 

Redfoot NERD

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Yes Yvonne [ like anything ] you have to "work at it".. hmmm(?). And we can hope that things will change soon.. so the "conditions are right" - again.

"When your out-go exceeds your income.. then your upkeep becomes your downfall". I would change [ something? ] things if I had that kind of an upkeep bill Danny.

Somewhere between a $50 sulcata and an expensive tortoise [ not endangered ] is a "wise" investment.. providing you are able and willing to do what it takes to make it profitable.

Ya'all are making excuses for not making it profitable.. maybe?

Terry K
 

egyptiandan

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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm change things. The only 2 things I can think of changing are getting rid of the tortoises I seem to be passionate about and/or getting tortoises that are going to get me more money per hatchling.
Where I am I am still going to have to have any tortoise inside at least 8 to 9 months out of the year, which will eat into any "profit" I might make and I do mean eat. :p
I never got into having turtles or tortoises to make a profit. I would of course love them to pay for themselves, but it's not going to make me throw in the towel and say no more tortoises if they don't.
I get more satisfaction out of what I do with the tortoises and turtles, than anything else in my life (except for Kelly xxxxxxxxxxx). That is all the "profit" I'll ever need. :D

Danny
 

Yvonne G

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I could conceivably sell (if I had them, that is, and if I could find a market for them) maybe 60 Burmese Mt. and Forest tortoises a year. I might be able to get $200 apiece for them ($12,000). Since I spend about $120 a week to feed the tortoises and about $500 a month for the electricity to keep them alive and about $200 a month for the water to keep the rain forest growing (not including the lumber or supplies to reinforce habitats that degrade), there just isn't any way to make a profit in it. And these are my favorite tortoise. Are you saying that I should get rid of my favorites and invest in a tortoise that sells better and is more prolific? That's not why I have tortoises. I have them because I really like and enjoy them. I don't have redfoots because I'm not that fond of them. I adopted out most of my leopards because I didn't have a market for the babies and ended up selling the last few for only $50 apiece. And the leopards aren't as much enjoyment as the Burmese or box turtles. I'm a retired Telephone Engineer, living on Social Security and a pension and all my "spare" money goes into my tortoises...because I really, really enjoy them! If I HAD to make money on them, and in order to make money, had to invest in a specie that I wasn't that fond of, it would take the enjoyment out of it.

Yvonne
 

oswego tort lover

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$850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed
 

Redfoot NERD

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Yvonne and Danny your 'personal' choices are fine.. [ I too have conditions to overcome where I live also ] but have nothing to do with the answer to the Q?.

When someone is able and willing to do what it takes to make it profitable.. [ financially ].. it is profitable.

Vince.. as an example.. lives where the "only" overhead is feeding.. and he can 'grow' most of that. So with wise management and marketing strategy.. he could make "tortoises a wise investment".

Terry K

oswego tort lover said:
$850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed

36_2_25.gif
.. ed

We've mentioned some dialogue on how to lower expenses.. haven't we?

tek
 
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stells

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I find it very sad that anyone would think of any animal as an investment.

If you are passionate about something... making money shouldn't come into it..

I guess greed and the want to be the best just overwhelms some people..

I have no breeders so am already working on a loss... if i never had breeding tortoises it wouldn't matter to me... because i love the hobby.

This thread is just pointing out those that are passionate and those that are greedy ;)

Only being able to keep them out for 3-4 months of the year would have something to do with the weather.

I'm in the UK, my tortoises can only be out between May and late September and even that was pushing it this year. The climate is changing and the summers here are getting to be very wet.

oswego tort lover said:
$850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. if i had the costs claimed above i sure would change things around. id have to. i use an extra room to house my torts in the winter here . i would heat this room any ways as its part of the house. i guess its good i keep leopards. they do support my other species expensives. yes i really like leopards. dan do you live in one of our metro areas and your rent is sky hi, and why can they be outside only 3 or 4 months a year. i wonder if further dialoge is needed to help members lower expensives....no one should be spending all their spare monies on animal husbandry. its not rational........ed
 

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oswego tort lover said:
$850.00 a month $120.00 to feed $500.00 electric $200.00 for water?? wow now i can see why you dont at least keep even.food can be had FREE from your local grocery store, its called trim from the produce people, and thats in the winter.your yard or local empty lot can provide graze in the warm months .i guess its where you live that effects husbandry costs. ......ed

The type of tortoises I keep eat tropical plants. I have tropicals planted in their enclosure, but I don't live in a tropical climate, so the plants freeze every winter and have to be fenced off in the spring to allow them to re-grow. It was my choice to keep this kind of tortoise in this climate so I'm not complaining about the $$ I spend to keep them alive and healthy, I was only trying to make a point.

Yvonne
 

Yvonne G

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I was thinking about this question as I picked up poop this a.m. and I want to frame a new response:

I don't consider the money I've spent on my tortoises as an investment because I'll more than likely NEVER see a $$ return on that money. However I DO have something invested in my tortoises, and that is "time" and "energy." I receive a return on that investment every day...10-fold!! I get so much pleasure and enjoyment out of my turtles and tortoises, that I will continue to invest time and energy into them for as long as I am able. And I will continue to see a return on that investment! I get great satisfaction in knowing that someday I may be able to add to the data-base on breeding the Manouria species. And, if my Aldabran tortoises turn out to be a pair, like I think they are, then someday I will have the satisfaction in maybe seeing that I have helped that giant in the reproduction game.

So, YES, tortoises are a great investment, if you are only considering the time and energy you spend on them!

Yvonne
 

egyptiandan

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No Ed I don't live in the city, I live in the country. None of that money was rent. They are outside only that amount of time because it's to cold, either at night or during the day to have them out.
With Testudo I basicly have to have everyone seperate inside, so everyone has their own basking lamps and lights.
Grocery stores here now don't do trim as the greens come sealed in a plastic bag. Whatever might be free usually goes to local soup kitchens, so I've never been able to get "free" food from the grocery stores.
I do pick weeds when I can. It takes 6 plastic grocery bags full of weeds to feed everyone here. That usually takes me 3 to 4 hours to do that. I don't often have that much time and there aren't many places that I can get that many weeds. There are no vacant lots in the town I live in.
So where can I save money Ed:cool:

Danny
 

oswego tort lover

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dan do you mean that there isnt any stores that sell fresh produce in town? and yes that much time spent on finding and gathering weed isnt productive or fun i bet. the store i get my produce from also gives to food pantries so i need to cultivate relationships with produce managers who ive gotten to know over the years. they have saved me the expensives some others have. great people. still dan where can you save mony? it would seem that with the mony your spending now your headed toward not being able to keep them all. you might need to cut back the herd. i agree that keeping tortoies is time and energy well spent even if theres no mony to be made. im just glad its working for me. at least right now. as far as one who claims sadness about animals being investments or that passion and profit shouldnt mix, well, i can see dans trying to make mony and at least get something back on all his expensives good for him thats what we do in the new world.i bet you dont call him names. perhaps your passion for the man sharpens your ...voice. ill bet when you do have breeding tortoies you will like to make some mony back.experience is the greatist teacher. i can see you will profit. ..............ed
 
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stells

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Don't make assumptions about me, its exactly people with this attitude that puts me off breeding altogether.. i won't be "marketing" my animals i can asure you of that. Myself and Danny have spoken about this topic, do you really think he will ever be able to make back money with all the years he has been keeping and the amount of tortoises he has?? its never going to happen, but thats not a worry because of his passion for these creatures so don't even try at twisting my words.

I find it extremely rude that Danny has so far been told to send his tortoises elsewhere so someone can show him how to make money on them and then be told he should cut back.. i haven't seen Danny say anywhere that he can't afford the animals and needs to cut back, the only reason the cost came up was because of this thread and because people assume to much.

If your tortoises stop paying for themselves and making this so called profit, will you be making cut backs on yours??
 

Yvonne G

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Within 5 miles of my home there is a Von's and a Savemart. The produce manager at Von's told me that he saves his trimmings for someone who has spoken for them prior to me asking. The Savemart turns their trimmings back to the home office where they turn it into compost, which they sell at the store. So trimmings aren't an option for me.

Yvonne
 

Redfootedboxturtles

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I have been absent from my own thread for so long I had to take some time and catch up on the discussion.
I wanted to touch on what stells said that it would be greedy to want to make a profit from tortoises. I love tortoises, I lover caring for them and adopting them. I think its absurd to suggest its greedy for wanted to make a profit just by working with animals that you are passionate about. That's like saying just because
you love doing something you should not do if professionally. I believe its the exact opposite of that.
Why would I invest my money in things I dont really care about instead of something I am passionate about?

Other then that I am loving the debate.

My cost are extremely low. I do both things Ed and Terry spoke of. I have established relationships with small produce markets. I have boxes of bell peppers in the fridge as we speak. I grow food plants. I have little to no cost for food. I have a well for water. I am savvy with enclosure construction. I own over 50 tortoises.

So lets change the question a little bit. Under these conditions, would it be wise for me to invest lets say 5,000 in a breeding group of lets say elongated tortoises. Would it be unreasonable to assume that long term as an investment I would see a return on my investment?
 

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I have read many times that tortoises and turtles are not "investment" animals. Tortoises usually need to be at least 5-10 years old (depending on species), if not more, to breed. Many people breed snakes to help pay for the tortoise bills.

Though animals should not be looked at as investments, it's a sad fact. Cattle are raised as an investment for money and food.

To me, tortoises are a non-monetary investment. I am investing in having some cool and great pets for a looong time. It's pretty neat to think that I have some pets that can outlive me. Tortoises teach us to take life easy and sometimes we just need to take our time.
 
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