Baby Cherryhead shipped to young?

[Pearly]

Good morning from Texas! Would this part of the forum be a good place for me to solicit some advice on the above topic? If another part of this forum is more likely to attract much needed attention of some experts perhaps someone from admin could move this thread and just let me know? Anyway, here is my concern: our babies were shipped to us on June, 19 from a Florida breeder. This was before I knew about this forum. We had, what we thought, a fairly good foundation in general care knowledge to care for those babies. We were told by the breeder that one of the babies was a Redfoot female and another was a Cherryhead male, both approx 3 months old, hatched around same time. He said they tried to "regulate" genders of their hatchlings by different temp. settings during incubation. From the very day of their arrival our RF girl has been active and having hearty appetite. The Cherry-boy (assuming their sexes are right) has not only been much smaller, but also less active and not eating very well. Sorry, we're still having a family debate on the names. After all these torts are to remain in our family for a very long time! Hopefully. I took a very good look at the babies upon taking them out of their shipping boxes. The girl looked perfect except for some irregular/extra scutes. The boy's yolk sac scar on his plastron looked kinda fresh to me, and I did see a sharp point on his nose. At that time I didn't put 2&2 together to figure out it was most likely his "egg tooth" or whatever the correct term for the pointy beak used to help them hatch. It wasn't till last night that I found an article about unfortunate practice of selling babies who are to young and people having trouble feeding those babies for a long time before they catch on. I have a busy day ahead but will try to get a good close up pics of his underside (scar looks much better now) and his little "nose" and hopefully some experts in raising cherryhead babies will chime in to take me by the hand in this. His eating is my biggest concern. He'll take a nibble or two and goes back to his hide. The enclosure daytime high temps are in high 80's, and 78-79 in there hide area. I've been having trouble keeping constant readings in humidity (open, shallow habitat) but with warm misting several times a day it's been in high 70-80%. They get diverse diet complete with variety of greens twice daily and alternating veggies/fruits to go with the greens, as well as live worms which they seem to love. Our RF girls just gets them and our little "problem cherry child" eats them when I hand feed. They get Ca supplement with D3 and we do the daily warm soaks now (didn't know about those until just few days ago!) Our little "cherry-boy" seems to be willing to try the food but having trouble grasping it with his mouth, that's why I hand feed. It almost looks like he gets exhausted and discouraged from trying and just gives up and goes to the hide. After initial few days and him only eating few bites I started soaking Mazuri and blending together with whatever fresh produce and only then did he start taking more then 1-2 bites before giving up. Still even blended (really finely chopped) he eats so much less than his "sister". And yes, they are still housed together in a 4x2ft enclosure. We are preparing to either have 2 separate indoor habitats for them or get another girl or 2. For now, I need to address my immediate concern with our baby's health/intake. I know there are probably threads about this but nothing came up when I searched by "keywords" and was hoping some good soul out there who is as crazy about animals' welfare as we are in my family, would not mind reading this long post and chime in to either advise or point to an expert in the area of raising and troubleshooting in baby cherries. Thank you all in advance. I'll post pictures later today or tonight

 

[Pearly]

And btw, I'm rectifying humidity issue by moving him to 55 gal breeder tank which got at Petco yesterday (they are running that 1$ per gallon deal) also got thermostat, and heating pad to warm substrate from below if necessary to keep him warm and keep temps at steady constant values. Humidity will also be easier to keep with 16 inch high glass walls around. Btw, babies do spend 1-2 hrs outside everyday. Can't do more due to lack of proper outdoor enclosure, plus they are only around 2-2.5 inch so we have to keep an eye on them at all times, as they each tend to run in different direction I read horror stories about babies getting lost or hurt by predators.

 

[wellington]

Do you offer a basking light? Some RF don't seem to like to bask a lot but a higher temp, above 85 is need to digest food. Babies don't eat as much as you might think and they do sleep a lot. Always have food available for them. Also be very careful when taking them outside. Babies can over heat very quickly. Be sure you don't use any coil type bulbs. I don't own RF this is what I have learned from the forum. @N2TORTS can help you further and also look at the tortoiselibary.com website. It's really good for RF owners and its one of our members sites. Good luck, oh and give them a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes, important to keep them hydrated,

 

[Carol S]

I have heard that a person should not use a heating pad, that the heat should come from above, @N2TORTS can verify this for you.

If the baby that is not eating is as young as you think he is, that is most likely the problem. Also if they are not warm enough they do not want to eat. I am not sure what the proper temps are for a Cherry hatchling. My Russian hatchlings take a little while to become interested in food. The breeder you bought the baby from should not have sold it until it was older and eating good. I do not sell my hatchlings until they are close to 2 months old, eating well and showing signs of growth.

I hope your little one starts eating real soon. Keep us updated as to his progress.

 

[Anyfoot]

Good morning from Texas! Would this part of the forum be a good place for me to solicit some advice on the above topic? If another part of this forum is more likely to attract much needed attention of some experts perhaps someone from admin could move this thread and just let me know? Anyway, here is my concern: our babies were shipped to us on June, 19 from a Florida breeder. This was before I knew about this forum. We had, what we thought, a fairly good foundation in general care knowledge to care for those babies. We were told by the breeder that one of the babies was a Redfoot female and another was a Cherryhead male, both approx 3 months old, hatched around same time. He said they tried to "regulate" genders of their hatchlings by different temp. settings during incubation. From the very day of their arrival our RF girl has been active and having hearty appetite. The Cherry-boy (assuming their sexes are right) has not only been much smaller, but also less active and not eating very well. Sorry, we're still having a family debate on the names. After all these torts are to remain in our family for a very long time! Hopefully. I took a very good look at the babies upon taking them out of their shipping boxes. The girl looked perfect except for some irregular/extra scutes. The boy's yolk sac scar on his plastron looked kinda fresh to me, and I did see a sharp point on his nose. At that time I didn't put 2&2 together to figure out it was most likely his "egg tooth" or whatever the correct term for the pointy beak used to help them hatch. It wasn't till last night that I found an article about unfortunate practice of selling babies who are to young and people having trouble feeding those babies for a long time before they catch on. I have a busy day ahead but will try to get a good close up pics of his underside (scar looks much better now) and his little "nose" and hopefully some experts in raising cherryhead babies will chime in to take me by the hand in this. His eating is my biggest concern. He'll take a nibble or two and goes back to his hide. The enclosure daytime high temps are in high 80's, and 78-79 in there hide area. I've been having trouble keeping constant readings in humidity (open, shallow habitat) but with warm misting several times a day it's been in high 70-80%. They get diverse diet complete with variety of greens twice daily and alternating veggies/fruits to go with the greens, as well as live worms which they seem to love. Our RF girls just gets them and our little "problem cherry child" eats them when I hand feed. They get Ca supplement with D3 and we do the daily warm soaks now (didn't know about those until just few days ago!) Our little "cherry-boy" seems to be willing to try the food but having trouble grasping it with his mouth, that's why I hand feed. It almost looks like he gets exhausted and discouraged from trying and just gives up and goes to the hide. After initial few days and him only eating few bites I started soaking Mazuri and blending together with whatever fresh produce and only then did he start taking more then 1-2 bites before giving up. Still even blended (really finely chopped) he eats so much less than his "sister". And yes, they are still housed together in a 4x2ft enclosure. We are preparing to either have 2 separate indoor habitats for them or get another girl or 2. For now, I need to address my immediate concern with our baby's health/intake. I know there are probably threads about this but nothing came up when I searched by "keywords" and was hoping some good soul out there who is as crazy about animals' welfare as we are in my family, would not mind reading this long post and chime in to either advise or point to an expert in the area of raising and troubleshooting in baby cherries. Thank you all in advance. I'll post pictures later today or tonight

Hi there. My temps are 90f in warm end and 80f in cool end for my juveniles. This I am confident is in the right zone for temps or there abouts. I'll let some experts chime in for everything else. This way I can learn too .. I'll tag a few redfoot breeders in for you, hope they don't mind.
@Turtlepete @N2TORTS @cdmay @allegraf @tortadise There's loads more. See what happens, Hope you get some help.
BTW. Can anyone tell me the average size of a neonate redfoot please?

 

[allegraf]

For babies, I prefer to keep them at a regulated 81-82F throughout a closed-ish chamber. When they are that little they are way more sensitive to their environment, especially heat and humidity. This seems to be the critical time for the shell to grow nice and smooth. I will post a pic of my 3.5 week old so you can see what the plastron and egg sac area should look like at 3.5 weeks. I don't use the egg tooth as a guide to help determine age, as you will see the 3.5 week old still has it, and it is solid looking. Some of my 2 month olds have remnants of the egg tooth. It I just not something I use to gauge age.

I use bottom heat for my hatchling's and in the grow outs until they are about six months old. Then I kick them outside.

 

[allegraf]

I keep the hatchlings in the second incubator for the first three weeks to a month to ensure they have a strong start. This has worked the best for me. Then I move them into a closed-ish chamber with heat coils at the bottom to ease them out of the incubator. I don't sell any of my babies at less than a month old and they have to have at least a week out of the incubator so they are ready to adapt to their new home. Here are pics oft 3.5 week old, last hatchling for 2015. He is out of the incubator and into closed-ish enclosure.

Sorry about the bad quality, I used my iPhone and taken under garage fluorescent lights. All of which in my novice hands makes for bad pictures.

 

[Pearly]

Thank you so much for responding to my posts. Today my daughter and I worked on improving the babies' living conditions. They now live in planted 40 gal breeder with approx 5 inches of coco coir they have 3 great hides covered with live moss to choose from, basking and UV lights on warm side and ceramic heater bulb on the cooler dark side. The parameter readings have improved dramatically and both babies took off exploring their new home right away. I hand fed our "cherry-boy" some greens and he also ate 1/2 mealworm and then for the first time ever he headed for their water bowl, walked right in and took a long drink. Then he, for the very first time walked back to the food dish and started chomping on his greens! All by himself! I couldn't believe my own eyes!!!! I didn't get the close up pics, like I said I would, sorry! To much going on today. Will do it tomorrow. I'm getting really tired now, will have to answer your individual posts tomorrow. Again, thank you so much for chiming in

 

[Anyfoot]

For babies, I prefer to keep them at a regulated 81-82F throughout a closed-ish chamber. When they are that little they are way more sensitive to their environment, especially heat and humidity. This seems to be the critical time for the shell to grow nice and smooth. I will post a pic of my 3.5 week old so you can see what the plastron and egg sac area should look like at 3.5 weeks. I don't use the egg tooth as a guide to help determine age, as you will see the 3.5 week old still has it, and it is solid looking. Some of my 2 month olds have remnants of the egg tooth. It I just not something I use to gauge age.

I use bottom heat for my hatchling's and in the grow outs until they are about six months old. Then I kick them outside.

@allegraf. Hi there. The exact temps I have are 88f down to 80f. No basking spot. Humidity at 90/100%. My torts dont seem to be in any one particular part of their enclosure, so I assumed they were OK with what they had, in the past I have turned the warm end down to experiment and they just went lethargic. Now they are a bit older they are becoming livelier and seem to be acknowledging our presance, rather than just running into the hides. I'm now at the stage where I need to build a bigger enclosure for them. So a few questions.
At my 6f higher than yours will this promote bad growth?
Can torts grow too fast through higher temps?
What are you using for uvb?
Thank you.
I got mine at 4 months old( so I was told). I can't prove it but I'm convinced they were dry started. The reason of this thinking was the shop owner also had an enclosure full of 10 month old reds. These were dry and already had obvious pyramiding. She said she had 16 breeding females in the flat above her shop. It was obvious she didn't want to show me her set up. Anyway I'm waffling on now. I'm worried I have the temps too high now.
Mine are now 14months old now. Do you have any photos of some around this age please?

 

[Pearly]

Do you offer a basking light? Some RF don't seem to like to bask a lot but a higher temp, above 85 is need to digest food. Babies don't eat as much as you might think and they do sleep a lot. Always have food available for them. Also be very careful when taking them outside. Babies can over heat very quickly. Be sure you don't use any coil type bulbs. I don't own RF this is what I have learned from the forum. @N2TORTS can help you further and also look at the tortoiselibary.com website. It's really good for RF owners and its one of our members sites. Good luck, oh and give them a warm water soak every day for 20-30 minutes, important to keep them hydrated,

Good morning and thanks again for responding. Yes, I've had a 100 watt ZooMed basking bulb since the beginning, and fluorescent tube for UVB and ceramic heat bulb for their dark/hide area. I never saw them bask until we moved them yesterday to their tank. Not sure why, but seems they like it better. The substrate is softer (coco coir as opposed to Reptibark) and I think the tank being 16 inches deep will be better for keeping humidity up. They were very active yesterday all day day with just naps and both ate well. Yesterday I got another couple of thermometers, so now have 2 standard (dial) thermometers and hygrometers in different ends of their home, plus digital one (with probes for temp and humidity) , plus yesterday's purchase : infrared "gun" thermometer for spot checks which can be used all over including substrate level and up. Our babies do have food available all day long. We bring fresh spring mix and romaine twice a day as well as freshly blended ones mixed with Mazuri. Other things like fruit, veggies, live worms, hardboiled egg are being alternated. I'm still trying to encourage good eating habits We typically take them outside late afternoons when the heat is not to bad here, and there's always sun and shade available, but they seem much more interested in running like crazy, seem to love the texture of that lowcut, fine golfcoarse grass. I bring my soaking equipment for ouroutings, as they have to be constantly watched anyway during that time, this is when they get their bath. It bothers me a little that they don't seem to chill in there like all the other bath stories I hear from people. Ours keep trying to climb out of the tub but I'm being hardass about it and make them stay because all that I've read about warm soaks... About the "coil type of bulb", I did have one! It cam in a set of 2 (basking and UVB) where the UVB was similar type (skinny tubes not coiled but rather bent and doubled) it was by ZOOmed, I posted pics on another thread I started and was advised to swich which I did right away. I am already familiar with the tortoise library! Great resource!

 

[Pearly]

I have heard that a person should not use a heating pad, that the heat should come from above, @N2TORTS can verify this for you.

If the baby that is not eating is as young as you think he is, that is most likely the problem. Also if they are not warm enough they do not want to eat. I am not sure what the proper temps are for a Cherry hatchling. My Russian hatchlings take a little while to become interested in food. The breeder you bought the baby from should not have sold it until it was older and eating good. I do not sell my hatchlings until they are close to 2 months old, eating well and showing signs of growth.

I hope your little one starts eating real soon. Keep us updated as to his progress.

Hi, Carol, thank you for responding to my concern. The heating pad already went back to pet store yesterday. After setting things up I watched the temps/humidity and concluded we didn't need one. Texas is very warm in the summer and we have to keep our a/c units going, I was worried the lamps would not be enough for this size of enclosure to keep them warm, but with 2 bulbs for heat and 4 x 16inch glass walls to keep it from mixing with frigid air from a/c vents the readings were good all day yesterday. I have read about "heating from the top" but was worried about them being so little and the Cherry-boy not eating, I was willing to try anything to stimulate him a bit. That heating pad was the kind that goes under the substrate (or even under the tank floor, like the ones for tropical fish tanks). I guess I won't have to worry about that until they are fully grown and living in our garden. Now I'm second guessing myself: "may be I was wrong"? "Maybe he wasn't to young, but rather his enclosure wasn't right for him?" Etc... "But the RF girl was ok in that enclosure"... Blahblahblah Water under the bridge! I'm hoping for a new beging now! Thank you for the N2TORTS reference. I'll take pics today

 

[Pearly]

Hi there. My temps are 90f in warm end and 80f in cool end for my juveniles. This I am confident is in the right zone for temps or there abouts. I'll let some experts chime in for everything else. This way I can learn too .. I'll tag a few redfoot breeders in for you, hope they don't mind.
@Turtlepete @N2TORTS @cdmay @allegraf @tortadise There's loads more. See what happens, Hope you get some help.
BTW. Can anyone tell me the average size of a neonate redfoot please?

Hi there! Thank you for joining my thread. I need as many brains as possible to help me jumpstart this new hobby which is really my Little Girl's, but she needs the help and I will be there for here until I draw my last breath. My Daughter is very special to me and I try to teach her about good partnership and teamwork. Some day she will have great childhood memories about this About the temps: we'll be watching them, yesterday the warm end was 87-88, and the cool in low 80's right after the new setup was done. The kids are starting a journal where they will be recording weights/measurements, and temp/humidity readings. I am much happier with this new set up. Just have to plant it some more and put some earthworms and maybe pillbugs (read about "bioactive substrate" in another thread). Thank you for all the breeders tags! Much appreciated! I'll try to get good pictures today. Have a great day

 

[Pearly]

For babies, I prefer to keep them at a regulated 81-82F throughout a closed-ish chamber. When they are that little they are way more sensitive to their environment, especially heat and humidity. This seems to be the critical time for the shell to grow nice and smooth. I will post a pic of my 3.5 week old so you can see what the plastron and egg sac area should look like at 3.5 weeks. I don't use the egg tooth as a guide to help determine age, as you will see the 3.5 week old still has it, and it is solid looking. Some of my 2 month olds have remnants of the egg tooth. It I just not something I use to gauge age.

I use bottom heat for my hatchling's and in the grow outs until they are about six months old. Then I kick them outside.

Good morning! And thanks for your response. I have a chiropractor at 8 but as soon as done with getting my back/leg "twisted and broken" I'll address your comments. May have additional questions as well. Later

 

[Pearly]

I keep the hatchlings in the second incubator for the first three weeks to a month to ensure they have a strong start. This has worked the best for me. Then I move them into a closed-ish chamber with heat coils at the bottom to ease them out of the incubator. I don't sell any of my babies at less than a month old and they have to have at least a week out of the incubator so they are ready to adapt to their new home. Here are pics oft 3.5 week old, last hatchling for 2015. He is out of the incubator and into closed-ish enclosure.View attachment 141087View attachment 141088View attachment 141089

Sorry about the bad quality, I used my iPhone and taken under garage fluorescent lights. All of which in my novice hands makes for bad pictures.

Hi there, and thanks so much for taking your time to respond and include pictures. I have the new habitat semi-done (meaning livable, just not where I want it to be esthetics-wise). With 2 stickon dial thermometers/hygrometers one in "desert" another in "dark forest" area, with digital thermo and hygrometer in their hideout area and infrared "gun thermometer" for spot checks all over I now have a pretty good idea of how we're doing. The readings are in low 80's in their hide area and 88-89 in "desert", with low 90's directly under the basking lamp. At night it stays in low 80's throughout their home. Humidity in high 80's % in hide area and little lower in "desert" (we do mist couple of times per day, all the plants are new and not well established yet, need moisture). We are checking the babies undersides for any signs of problems during their bath time, and so far they are ok. Our babies were sold to us as 3-4 months old... and they looked no bigger than the one your pictures... but then, of course, I wouldn't know. The main thing is that our little Cherry-boy has started eating! And not just his blended food (greens/fruits/veggies/Mazuri) but also going for the whole leaves of spring mix, romain and tries to chump on thin slices of squash. They both seem to looove live waxworms, mealworms. We also got a can of live baby size earthworms but neither one was interested so we let them out in the enclosure and they all seem to have found a home under the terra-cotta water dish. I will start a new thread about our new beginnings, and hope you come visit, give your insight and suggestions

 

[allegraf]

@allegraf. Hi there. The exact temps I have are 88f down to 80f. No basking spot. Humidity at 90/100%. My torts dont seem to be in any one particular part of their enclosure, so I assumed they were OK with what they had, in the past I have turned the warm end down to experiment and they just went lethargic. Now they are a bit older they are becoming livelier and seem to be acknowledging our presance, rather than just running into the hides. I'm now at the stage where I need to build a bigger enclosure for them. So a few questions.
At my 6f higher than yours will this promote bad growth?
Can torts grow too fast through higher temps?
What are you using for uvb?
Thank you.
I got mine at 4 months old( so I was told). I can't prove it but I'm convinced they were dry started. The reason of this thinking was the shop owner also had an enclosure full of 10 month old reds. These were dry and already had obvious pyramiding. She said she had 16 breeding females in the flat above her shop. It was obvious she didn't want to show me her set up. Anyway I'm waffling on now. I'm worried I have the temps too high now.
Mine are now 14months old now. Do you have any photos of some around this age please?

88F is too hot. Yes, they can grow too fast. If they are going lethargic, you may want to check your thermometer. I don't use anything for UVB, they get an outside bath in the dappled shade once a week. the ones I posted here are about 14-16 months old.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cherry-color-porn.124230/

These weren't as smooth as I would have liked, but that serves me right for rushing them outside of the closed chamber too soon.

 

[Pearly]

So what's the target temp for basking and the "desert area" please? I'll get it right, one of these days

 

[pfara]

So what's the target temp for basking and the "desert area" please? I'll get it right, one of these days

I keep my enclosure almost thoroughly moist for most of the day so I can't help you with the desert area. I believe all you really need is an overall ambient temp of a low to mid 80sF. However, my basking temps are around 92-95F.

 

[Pearly]

I keep my enclosure almost thoroughly moist for most of the day so I can't help you with the desert area. I believe all you really need is an overall ambient temp of a low to mid 80sF. However, my basking temps are around 92-95F.

I'm only calling it "desert" for the amount of light and succulents planted there. The whole habitat is a 40 gal tank so ambient temps don't differ much between "forest" and "desert". It's much warmer only in basking area. Humidity is also in close range. I was worried that my basking light was too strong, temp too high directly under it

 

[pfara]

I know that some people on the forum recommend forced soaks with the water temps between 90-95F. That's what I used as a guide for basking temps. I've noticed with my reds that they don't mind basking directly under the light at those temps and also don't spend hours under them to fry their shells. You'll notice the individual tort's preference over time. It really can vary greatly.

 

[Pearly]

I know that some people on the forum recommend forced soaks with the water temps between 90-95F. That's what I used as a guide for basking temps. I've noticed with my reds that they don't mind basking directly under the light at those temps and also don't spend hours under them to fry their shells. You'll notice the individual tort's preference over time. It really can vary greatly.

Thanks! I should really start "listening" to my babies which I will be doing more and more as I gain the experience. For the beginner there are so many questions and so much confusion with all kinds of info from all over. I don't see our babies spend that much time basking. They do it some but I see them either walk around their habitat or nestled in their hides. Each individual hide (they are 3) temps are 82.5-82.9 F, they are humid, covered with couple of layers of moist live moss. The babies seem to love sitting inside and peeking out from behind their "moss curtains" or sleeping.