Baby Redfoot(s) Question-Bullying Aggression? Behavior issues...

ascott

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I was thinking originally, could crabby's torts have food on them, like blood,mazuri banana or strawberry juice(anything they go mad for) to cause the biting at each other. That's why I said just feed dandies and mushrooms to eradicate that theory.
Then........

Could it be a redfoots natural instinct/need for animal protein kicking in, if the need is not met, they turn on each other. If they were my torts I would feed them 2 or 3 pinkies each(just as a one off may be) then wash the torts and see what happens over the next few days. I would try everytjing possible before deciding to get rid of some, must be an answer. Horrible situation to be in.

Like zombie tortoise....uuuuhhhhhhhh (that was zombie tortoise sound) :tort: uhhhhhhhh
 

NDevon

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I use a long piece of slate to feed from, and I put food all over it. If one sits on the food as will inevitably happen it covers a quarter at most and the others can still eat. Maybe try something like that? I think I followed what you were saying, so it's just the Cherryhead that has shown any physical aggression, number two sits on the food? Personally I have seen all 4 of mine do that at one time or another, I thought of it more as stupidity really as they end up covered in food, they may be saying 'this is mine' but as there is plenty more for my situation it isn't an issue.

I can see you are frustrated about the contradictory information you recieve, I truly believe in most cases multiple Redfoots live happily together, this is proven more often than disproven. There will always be cases where one or more don't get along, and your Cherhead is proving the point there. I think with the Cherryhead removed you shouldn't have any issues, Redfoot 2 sitting on the food is very common. Just make sure the food plate or slate is big enough that even sat on it and moving about there is always plenty of food left for number 1. You said you use 2 plates but they go to the same, if Redfoot 1 is joining 2 I'd guess it wasn't feeling too bullied and unable to eat.

The common belief that Redfoots live together happily is true for most and if you didn't have the biting from the Cherryhead I bet you'd feel the same. As @Anyfoot said it will be interesting to find out the sex of each.

If I were you I would get another enclosure sorted for the Cherryhead and keep 1 and 2 together. Please measure your enclosure and add some pics so we can give some tips, nobody is going to tell you it's all wrong and you've made a mistake, people want to help as you've ask for some advice. The one thing I've learnt here is that the advice is good and the people are kind :)
 

ZEROPILOT

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I feel very badly about saying that Redfoot do well in groups.
maybe I'll say that they do better than most species when kept in groups.
Even the few issues I've encountered were mild.
 

Anyfoot

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I feel very badly about saying that Redfoot do well in groups.
maybe I'll say that they do better than most species when kept in groups.
Even the few issues I've encountered were mild.
No need to feel bad ed, some groups do well and some don't by the sounds of it. I think the 'doing well' is more 'they are more tolerant'.
I often wonder with wild juvenile reds, would they live a solitary life until they get big enough to venture out or would you get pockets of clutch mates scattered around.
 

crabby-J

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they were eating mushrooms and apples at the time, I was watching them and think that josie could have bite raymond thinking he was part of the mushroom, I just don't know, I'm going to try them all together since they still sleep all day and I now feed them all their own little dish of food and last night they did better
 

crabby-J

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Thanks everyone for helping me out and sorry to make such a big stink, I just adore them so much and would hate to separate them, they are still so little
 

Anyfoot

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I have to get this off my chest.
There as been talk of a tort sitting on the food source. Yes this maybe a donance thing. Its normal. But we can't advise everyone who sees this to start splitting their herd up. There will always be a weekest link to every group.
 

lisa127

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I have to get this off my chest.
There as been talk of a tort sitting on the food source. Yes this maybe a donance thing. Its normal. But we can't advise everyone who sees this to start splitting their herd up. There will always be a weekest link to every group.
My redfoot sits in his food dish and he lives alone.
 

dmmj

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I have to get this off my chest.
There as been talk of a tort sitting on the food source. Yes this maybe a donance thing. Its normal. But we can't advise everyone who sees this to start splitting their herd up. There will always be a weekest link to every group.
Do we advise 2 keep them together and wait for an injury happen before splitting up? splitting them up causes no harm and protect them from further aggression I don't understand. ultimately it's the owner's choice & decision 2 keep them
together or split them up no skin off my nose. not my tortoise
s not my risk
 

Anyfoot

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Do we advise 2 keep them together and wait for an injury happen before splitting up? splitting them up causes no harm and protect them from further aggression I don't understand. ultimately it's the owner's choice & decision 2 keep them
together or split them up no skin off my nose. not my tortoise
s not my risk
Fair comment captain. It's up to the owner. If I saw continuous biting,chasing, mounting or constant glaring etc, I would change something.
But I've seen every single one of my redfoots at some stage decide to sit on the food.
 

ZEROPILOT

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I don't think that sitting in the food is always a dominance thing. Sometimes it's just a clumsy oaf of a tortoise.
However, I see that when someone sits in the food with my herd, it is always Julio. My original Redfoot that years ago had to share with no one.
The second photo shows her muscling her way through the pack. The last to arrive and pushing the others away.
There is never any physical harm done and I generally feed in two or more piles now.
 

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NDevon

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Do we advise 2 keep them together and wait for an injury happen before splitting up? splitting them up causes no harm and protect them from further aggression I don't understand. ultimately it's the owner's choice & decision 2 keep them
together or split them up no skin off my nose. not my tortoise
s not my risk

There hasn't been any aggression other than the bite though as far as I can see. The aggressive tortoise was removed previously for biting, Crabby-J was worried the original two may need to be split up - though personally I wouldn't keep them in pairs, I went for 'many' when I knew I could have two and didn't want just one.

Sitting in the food is pretty natural it seems, someone above said theirs does it and it lives alone, so it's not likely being aggressive, more saying 'this is my food'. Mine climb all over their food and eat it, they never push the others out of the way or stop them eating, the closest they get to that is if two start eating the same item at different ends and meet in the middle, but that's never got aggressive.

You are right splitting them up causes no harm, but so many of keep them in groups without issue, so using the same thought process we could all go and build multiple new enclosures and split the groups up incase something happens. I just don't think that's necessary and I think it's a calculated risk as so many people are keeping them his way.

In fact I wonder how many people keep Redfoots individually, in pairs and in groups. Would be interesting to see the results.

Over the past week I've been watching my group trundle off to their hides after a soak and feed, they all follow along and sleep in the same place generally, and it isn't a case of one is going after the rest or one is always leading, it seems random although I will need to keep watching to be positive. If they didn't like each other and wanted to be alone they have options, sometimes during the day I will find one or more in other places but again it's random, rarely the same tortoise in the same place.

I may be wrong, I'm new to tortoises (although certainly not new to animal husbandry) and don't have the experience with them that you all have, but I'm confident they cohabit their enclosure without aggression or bullying unless it's verbal and psychological, and I'm pretty sure none of us are trained to understand that!
 

JoesMum

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Unfortunately torts are expert psychological bullies. I would go as far as to say that it's at least as common, if not more common, than physical bullying.

You really only realise it's happening after you have separated and the loser starts to thrive
 

ascott

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There hasn't been any aggression other than the bite though as far as I can see. The aggressive tortoise was removed previously for biting, Crabby-J was worried the original two may need to be split up - though personally I wouldn't keep them in pairs, I went for 'many' when I knew I could have two and didn't want just one.

Sitting in the food is pretty natural it seems, someone above said theirs does it and it lives alone, so it's not likely being aggressive, more saying 'this is my food'. Mine climb all over their food and eat it, they never push the others out of the way or stop them eating, the closest they get to that is if two start eating the same item at different ends and meet in the middle, but that's never got aggressive.

You are right splitting them up causes no harm, but so many of keep them in groups without issue, so using the same thought process we could all go and build multiple new enclosures and split the groups up incase something happens. I just don't think that's necessary and I think it's a calculated risk as so many people are keeping them his way.

In fact I wonder how many people keep Redfoots individually, in pairs and in groups. Would be interesting to see the results.

Over the past week I've been watching my group trundle off to their hides after a soak and feed, they all follow along and sleep in the same place generally, and it isn't a case of one is going after the rest or one is always leading, it seems random although I will need to keep watching to be positive. If they didn't like each other and wanted to be alone they have options, sometimes during the day I will find one or more in other places but again it's random, rarely the same tortoise in the same place.

I may be wrong, I'm new to tortoises (although certainly not new to animal husbandry) and don't have the experience with them that you all have, but I'm confident they cohabit their enclosure without aggression or bullying unless it's verbal and psychological, and I'm pretty sure none of us are trained to understand that!

So, here is my two cents...I may find more change as the conversation goes on....sometimes happens sometimes does not...so, I am not sure if you have ever seen two gorgeous, "mild" mannered male tortoise (sometimes the chicks too) encounter one another and turn completely into gladiators, heads tucked in, up on all fours at full speed (sounds silly saying full speed for a tortoise, but it is all relative) and literally ram one another over and over again until they can lock shells together and begin to walk up each other and one goes over on its back...legs flinging, head jerking into the air slamming down onto the dirt trying quickly, quickly being the operative word, to flip itself over...all the while the gladiator that flipped him is circling biting, ripping at the legs, neck, tail and anything else that can be attacked....and if the flipped tortoise does not flip back over it is left to die slowly by not being able to breath with all the gut weight resting on his lungs....while the winning gladiator walks a few steps away, turning back to keep an eye on the dying defeated weaker tortoise and lays down to keep an eye on him to make sure he does not get back over...there the winner rests watching the other tortoise die....bloody, stressed and helpless....and if he is lucky he will die in a few days but if not, not to worry, other animals will have at him along with ants and all other decomposers....

Now, in a forced captive environment a human will eventually come upon the tortoises so the graphic death scene may not be the same....but don't be fooled....in a forced captive situation there has to always be a dominant tortoise which means that if there are other tortoise required/forced to share the same space...there will have to be one or more forced submissive tortoise ....and if for some reason there are two that think they should be the dominant tortoise then there will be one or two bloodied, injured or dead tortoise....in the process of the dominant tortoise taking its place the weaker/submissive tortoise has to be made that way, and in doing so "usually" "generally" becomes withdrawn, does not eat as much, stops basking as much, stops exercising as much, stops hydrating as much and begins to show results of those changes...and that is usually the time we super smart, sharp top of the animal chain goes, "hey, my tortoise is sleeping too much" or " my tortoise does not seem to be eating" " One of my torts is so active and big and the other one is the shy quiet sweet one"....when we humans force tortoise into a captive situation, it is so cruel to then force them into unnaturally cohabitating with another tortoise....this would not happen by their natural choice...tortoise generally do not come together other than to mate or fight...they are not social in the way we humans are and seem to equate the same need to all other creatures....

THIS IS JUST MY TAKE.....just sayin.
 

JoesMum

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I will also add something that I said in another thread:

You cannot possibly watch them 24 x 7 x 375. You have no idea what's going on when you're not there.

I hadn't realised these were 2 males. That really doesn't bear thinking about. Testosterone-fuelled spats are inevitable.
 

Anyfoot

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I agree 100% with you guys with your analysis.
However would you split your torts up just because one sits on the food, or would this behavior have to be coupled with other types of bullying behavior before you thought it was something to worry about.
At the end of the day we(the carers) are inviting them to show signs of dominance, by putting one big pile of food in and inviting them all to gather round to eat. It's not natural to offer one huge pile for several torts on a daily basis.
When I feed protein to my 3 juveniles I always split them up out of the viv. Reason is because one will always gobble his/her food then try and muscle in on the others portion.
My opinion is they will occasionally sit on the food. We created that unnatural situation. Although I don't think that just sitting on the food is a case for splitting them up, in the future I'm going to offer more smaller piles of food so they can eat alone if they wish. We shall see what happens.

It's all interesting stuff, thanks everyone.
:D
 

NDevon

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....this would not happen by their natural choice...tortoise generally do not come together other than to mate or fight...they are not social in the way we humans are and seem to equate the same need to all other creatures....

I thought the same as the rest of your post until I read otherwise regarding the above. Redfoots have been observed sharing hides in the wild when there are other options. Of course that could be bullying too, it could be that several are all fighting over the same spot.
 
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