Baby sulcata not thriving.

[Shaye]

I posted earlier about the care I was taking of my baby sulcata who is a little over 1 month old. You recommended that I get a cover for the cage, so I did. The temperatures have stabilized very well, and the humidity is also high. His cool side has only dipped below 80 once, when we had a night which was 40° outdoors. And even then it was 78°.

The problem is, he is not active. He rarely moves around or is awake. I know babies like to hide because they're easy prey. However, he has not pooped since I got him about 10 days ago. He pooped and peed the night I got him, and peed the day after that. But has not done either since then.

He was eating fine until yesterday, maybe a bit on the low side. I assumed it was because he was in a new environment. He does not like pumpkin, but I've gotten him to eat a few pieces of cactus with pumpkin on it.

I soak him at least once a day, but aim to soak twice a day.

How can I help him get better?

 

[Tom]

Where did you get the tortoise and how was it started?
What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?
How warm is ambient temp in the enclosure during the day?
What heating and lighten equipment are you using? UV? What type?

 

[Shaye]

Where did you get the tortoise and how was it started?
What is the basking temp directly under the bulb?
How warm is ambient temp in the enclosure during the day?
What heating and lighten equipment are you using? UV? What type?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how he was started, could you explain? I bought him from a local breeder.

Basking temp fluxuates from 100°-105°. I have never seen him basking.

The ambient temperature is usually 84°. I am using two heat lamps, 60watt and 75 watt and a under tank heater. I am getting a CHE and another heating pad for the night.

 

[Tom]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by how he was started, could you explain? I bought him from a local breeder.

Basking temp fluxuates from 100°-105°. I have never seen him basking.

The ambient temperature is usually 84°. I am using two heat lamps, 60watt and 75 watt and a under tank heater. I am getting a CHE and another heating pad for the night.

There are many ways to start a baby right after hatching. For the last 3 decades, we have been starting this species and many others far too dry. Most people are still doing it that way, and it often leads to the death of the hatchling weeks or months later. Read more about it here:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

In contrast, this is how they should be started:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Do you know how often the local breeder soaked the babies? Were they kept on rabbit pellets or damp orchid bark? Open topped enclosure with low humidity or closed chamber with high humidity?

Undertank heaters and heat pads should never be used on tortoises. Burn potential is high.

 

[Shaye]

Oh no.. this sounds like him.

From pictures of his tortoises, they are all on hay in an open topped container.

There is no chance at saving him?

 

[Markw84]

Oh no.. this sounds like him.

From pictures of his tortoises, they are all on hay in an open topped container.

There is no chance at saving him?

Read this. The last post in this thread - I just did, on this exact topic. It will give you a perspective on an experience.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-weight-growth-rate.163558/

 

[Shaye]

Read this. The last post in this thread - I just did, on this exact topic. It will give you a perspective on an experience.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/leopard-tortoise-weight-growth-rate.163558/

So just take care of him and hope? I will do exactly that. I'll try to keep him eating cactus at least, as that's his favorite. Should I soak twice a day?

I want this guy to pull through, but he isn't looking too well.

 

[Tom]

There is no chance at saving him?

With good care in a warm humid environment and with daily soaks, some of them will pull through. Some make it, and some don't. All you can do is try.

Many people go to a vet and spend hundreds of dollars. If the baby's kidneys were damage in its first few days and weeks, there is nothing any vet can do to save it, and most of what they do actually does harm to a baby with compromised kidney's.

Try your best, wait and see. Don't give up.

Also, contact the breeder and let him/her know what is going on and why. The only way to stop this is to educate the people who are hatching these babies and caring for them in their first few days and weeks.

 

[TammyJ]

Rooting for you and the little guy!

 

[Shaye]

With good care in a warm humid environment and with daily soaks, some of them will pull through. Some make it, and some don't. All you can do is try.

Many people go to a vet and spend hundreds of dollars. If the baby's kidneys were damage in its first few days and weeks, there is nothing any vet can do to save it, and most of what they do actually does harm to a baby with compromised kidney's.

Try your best, wait and see. Don't give up.

Also, contact the breeder and let him/her know what is going on and why. The only way to stop this is to educate the people who are hatching these babies and caring for them in their first few days and weeks.

I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium?

Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with.

In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?

 

[Tom]

I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium?

Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with.

In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?

Excessive amounts of calcium will not help, and too much calcium interferes with the absorption of other important nutrients and trace elements. Adding lots of calcium also fails to recognize and address the actual problem: Kidney damage due to dehydration.

Please send me the breeder's name and contact info either here or in a private message. The only way to stop this is to reach the breeders who are still doing it the wrong way.

There are several people here on the forum that start their babies the right way. I am one of them. I have eggs incubating right now, and I just saw an ad from @Lancecham for some older babies that have a little more size on them. Austin @Arizona Sulcata usually has some available too.

If you don't mind waiting a while, you are well within driving distance to get one from me.

 

[Markw84]

I've read a bit more, and I saw that someone said they overloaded a soft baby with calcium. His shell has some give to it, but feels like it's hardening. Should I give more calcium?

Also the breeder was extremely insulting and insisted it was my fault because "water causes problems. I would never soak my tortoise.". So that gives you a clue to who I'm working with.

In case my baby dies (which I'm working my hardest to prevent.), Is there good breeders online that have proven to be trustworthy? I'm passionate about reptiles and have wanted a sulcata for years. Also what is the typical price for a baby sulcata?

You don't need to "overload" calcium. You do need to ensure there is enough calcium in the diet. The critical ingredients for proper bone growth are Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, and Vitamin D3. The first 3 will come with a good diet of dark green leafy greens and weeds. Try to favor items with high calcium content and a good (greater than 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio - as too much phosphorus can block calcium absorption. So just ensure a good balance of the good foods recommended here are offered daily. I also always introduce Mazuri tortoise food (original formula) to my tortoises as soon as possible. I'll soften a pellet and mix it with the food. All my tortoise take to it right away. It has a good balance of minerals and vitamins added so acts as the vitamin/mineral supplement for me. Next, be sure there is proper UVB exposure so the tortoise can metabolically make the proper amount of D3 it needs. With baby tortoises I always provide a good UVB light as they do so much better in a controlled indoor environment and outdoors is so hard to control the heat and humidity. Be sure the light is producing good UVB and mounted at the correct height. These things will take care of calcium requirements. Add that to the proper "climate" you provide = 80° min temp, 80% humidity, 14 hour photoperiod of good light with 95° basking area, and you have a good formula. Exercise is also key to good growth and bone development. I favor longer rather than shorter soaks. I like them scrambling about in the soak getting good exercise!!

Here's some good food items to favor in the diet: Be sure a good amount of at least one of these is included in the daily offering:
Dandelion
Grape Leaves
Hibiscus Leaves
Opuntia cactus pads (prickley pear cactus pads)
Collards
endive
kale
turnip greens
alfalfa
clover
young grass

 

[Shaye]

Excessive amounts of calcium will not help, and too much calcium interferes with the absorption of other important nutrients and trace elements. Adding lots of calcium also fails to recognize and address the actual problem: Kidney damage due to dehydration.

Please send me the breeder's name and contact info either here or in a private message. The only way to stop this is to reach the breeders who are still doing it the wrong way.

There are several people here on the forum that start their babies the right way. I am one of them. I have eggs incubating right now, and I just saw an ad from @Lancecham for some older babies that have a little more size on them. Austin @Arizona Sulcata usually has some available too.

If you don't mind waiting a while, you are well within driving distance to get one from me.

I'll send you the phone number.

I'm ok waiting a while. Getting a tort in winter probably wasn't the smartest of all ideas. I've waited years to get one and I'm not in any rush at this point. Where do you see the ads for torts?

 

[Shaye]

You don't need to "overload" calcium. You do need to ensure there is enough calcium in the diet. The critical ingredients for proper bone growth are Calcium, Phosphorus, Magnesium, and Vitamin D3. The first 3 will come with a good diet of dark green leafy greens and weeds. Try to favor items with high calcium content and a good (greater than 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio - as too much phosphorus can block calcium absorption. So just ensure a good balance of the good foods recommended here are offered daily. I also always introduce Mazuri tortoise food (original formula) to my tortoises as soon as possible. I'll soften a pellet and mix it with the food. All my tortoise take to it right away. It has a good balance of minerals and vitamins added so acts as the vitamin/mineral supplement for me. Next, be sure there is proper UVB exposure so the tortoise can metabolically make the proper amount of D3 it needs. With baby tortoises I always provide a good UVB light as they do so much better in a controlled indoor environment and outdoors is so hard to control the heat and humidity. Be sure the light is producing good UVB and mounted at the correct height. These things will take care of calcium requirements. Add that to the proper "climate" you provide = 80° min temp, 80% humidity, 14 hour photoperiod of good light with 95° basking area, and you have a good formula. Exercise is also key to good growth and bone development. I favor longer rather than shorter soaks. I like them scrambling about in the soak getting good exercise!!

Here's some good food items to favor in the diet: Be sure a good amount of at least one of these is included in the daily offering:
Dandelion
Grape Leaves
Hibiscus Leaves
Opuntia cactus pads (prickley pear cactus pads)
Collards
endive
kale
turnip greens
alfalfa
clover
young grass

I read somewhere that mazuri wasn't very good for baby torts because the protein? I'll pick up a few more things to ad to his diet, but so far he won't nibble on anything except cactus.

 

[Tom]

I'll send you the phone number.

I'm ok waiting a while. Getting a tort in winter probably wasn't the smartest of all ideas. I've waited years to get one and I'm not in any rush at this point. Where do you see the ads for torts?

In the "For Sale" section of the forum.

 

[Tom]

I read somewhere that mazuri wasn't very good for baby torts because the protein? I'll pick up a few more things to ad to his diet, but so far he won't nibble on anything except cactus.

This is false. In the old days people mistakenly thought that protein was the cause of pyramiding. It has been proven otherwise many times. Like any living animal, tortoises need a certain amount of protein for growth and health. Feeding them large quantities of meat would be bad. Feeding them a little plant protein as part of a varied diet is very good for them. The only time the would be a problem is if there were elevated protein levels in the diet and the tortoise was chronically dehydrated. This could cause "stones" to form. Since you will be soaking your baby daily, providing an appropriate water bowl, and keeping the tortoise with some humidity, this won't happen.

The "protein boogeyman" is a very persistent myth. We need to terminate him.

 

[Shaye]

Rooting for you and the little guy!

The more I soak him the more often he's getting these boosts of energy! Hopefully I caught the damage quickly enough for him to pull through.

 

[Shaye]

The more I soak him the more often he's getting these boosts of energy! Hopefully I caught the damage quickly enough for him to pull through.

So I am planning to update this posting weekly because I always hated finding old threads completely Abandoned with no explanation.

I soak my tortoise for 30 full minutes every day, and two 30 minute soaks on the weekends. So far, he pooped yesterday while in the sunlight, and today he had poop on his butt when I picked him up. No pee or poop in baths.

He has not eaten since I posted about it. I offer fresh food everyday and I make sure to feed him in the enclosure now, to make sure hes warm enough.

He was active enough to move from where he wanted to stay before, up until yesterday. He has almost entirely stopped moving on his own. I know this because after his bath I set him in his food dish and he didn't move for hours. Then I moved him to his water bowl, expecting him to scurry out. Again he stayed there for a while before I fished him out.

This requires me to make sure he's in his warm hide and it's moist in there. He'll shift around in the hide, but only an inch.

He rarely opens more than one eye now. He cannot seem to stay awake, often falling asleep in his baths. He is very lethargic.

I considered force feeding him, but I think it'll do more harm than good. It's heartbreaking to watch him struggle like this. I'm actually choked up writing this.

I do not have a scale, but he has not grown. I'm sure of it. Also the top 4 scutes are hard on his shell, but the sides and tummy and extremely squishy. I have stopped prodding after today because it makes me sad and stresses him out.

I will update in a week if he's still hanging around. I love him dearly, but things aren't looking great.

 

[Bambam1989]

So sorry that you're going through this. But grateful for the update

 

[Musa Nathan]

Sulcatas love hot climates...