baby torts are WAY WAY WAY more carnivorous than we'd like to think.

[cdmay]

Quote from NERD:
"As I watched my first acqired redfoot hatchlings in 1998 begin to grow 'bumpy' I was determined to not allow that to happen with my own hatchlings................ so I did virtually everything opposite the 90's caresheets(?) advocated. This was also the result of speaking with Richard Fife in '04 - remember Richard?.. the sulcata/leopard breeder. And Rico [ TN Aquarium ] who breeds Hermanns/Egytians ----- and not to forget the MASTER breeder of them all - Bill Zovickian - radiated, platynota, Sri ( elegans )..etc., etc. And of course the exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder Carl? I almost forgot the acquintances from Venezuela and Brazil that added to the understanding of the 'carbonaria species!"

I'm a what? "Exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder"?
NERD you never cease to be highly entertaining. Incomprehensible of course, but entertaining always.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Quote from NERD:
"As I watched my first acqired redfoot hatchlings in 1998 begin to grow 'bumpy' I was determined to not allow that to happen with my own hatchlings................ so I did virtually everything opposite the 90's caresheets(?) advocated. This was also the result of speaking with Richard Fife in '04 - remember Richard?.. the sulcata/leopard breeder. And Rico [ TN Aquarium ] who breeds Hermanns/Egytians ----- and not to forget the MASTER breeder of them all - Bill Zovickian - radiated, platynota, Sri ( elegans )..etc., etc. And of course the exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder Carl? I almost forgot the acquintances from Venezuela and Brazil that added to the understanding of the 'carbonaria species!"

I'm a what? "Exotic snake handler turned redfoot breeder"?
NERD you never cease to be highly entertaining. Incomprehensible of course, but entertaining always.

Thank you Carl! Did you not work with 'exotic' snakes early on.. good sources claim this?! Weren't you early on known for the 'rare' species of snakes that you bred? I knew that would get you going.

NERD

 

[Redfoot NERD]

At the risk of derailing a good Terry/Mark spar, which are always informative and entertaining I am going to stick out my neck a bit on this one and go to bat for Terry (who really doesn't need my help LOL) Yes, sometimes his posts take a little work to fully understand, I have sympathy for that, my wife tells me all the time how poor I am at communicating

His caresheet really is a large reason for this thread's existance. It was while I was thinking about light and D3 in particular, and also about Tom's recent work with "Desert" Torts, inspired by Terry's work with Redfoots, and bouncing ideas off Mark about all of the above and all the different approaches and theories we've got cooking in this forum, like this big swirling casserole in my head that the inspiration for this thread popped up.

Frankly, I'd forgotten about LIMITING protein for the first 6 months in Terry's caresheet, I'd cared little about that part as I had no babies, but I did recall how he largely kept these babies indoors, and adults indoors part of the year, with NO UVB lights, just PL/AQ lamps "so as not to burn out their eyes with all that uv". He advocates Redfoots primarily gaining D3 through Diet. He suggests feeding redfoots far more protein than most other experts. This is of two-fold importance to my current work. Fact is, there IS UV in those PL/AQ bulbs, just in far lesser quantities than a reptile lamp, but maybe enough, ESPECIALLY when coupled with a good diet. Having forgotten about the under 6 month rule, I assumed animal matter was a source of D3 in their Diets. His Babies are kept in dark and warm, cozy environments, and they thrive. Lightbulbs went off for me.

I get where he's coming from in being reticent to advocate bugs for babies. Frankly, I fully expected to get LAMPOONED for doing so. It goes to show, we've come a long ways in truly understanding the needs of our animals, we're getting somewhere as a community.

Thank you Balboa!.. although it may seem like I'm sparring with Mark.. I'm just making sure that there is not anyone that falls for the contradiction that may confuse what is really simple. A basic/simple - easy to use 'caresheet' is what we all want isn't it??? And I'm not about to post the number of "thank you's" and requests for help I get a couple times every week via email.

Read each sentence/group of words as a separate meaning. Maybe I make it too simple? We have to remember I'm trying to respond to what others' claim.. maybe not in the right order.

So yes, when we feed the hatchlings - yearlings a progression of tender leaves ( dandelions, hibiscus, curly endive, collards, etc. ) and well-ripened fruit.. they seem to do fine; mine have anyway.

As far as what "protein" they consume in the wild [ prior to 6 months of age ].. you suppose nature gives them the instinct as to when, what and how much? No doubt better than [ here's a reply to a comment ] what any "researchers" have done in the wild or in a lab! Besides why would you experiment with baby tortoises when there has been how many [ another response ] DECADES of "How NOT to care for tortoises"!?!? Man has proven that real well.. I did for about 5 years and Tom claimed for how many years?... the list is never ending!

When it works don't fix it.. keep it simple.. less is best... and NEVER listen to what the petstore tells you!

.. their purpose is to sell you stuff.

AND hands-on/longer-term breeders 'usually' know more about caring for hatchlings of particular species.. than field/computer researchers do. Of course there are always exceptions, extremes and those that don't agree or contradict.

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

Stepping back to the thesis of the thread, I thought it would be useful to toss out another reminder that this IS the DEBATABLE TOPICS section, and as such, these ideas are somewhere between actual fact and wild speculation. (Thanks, Carl, for reminding me about this.)

Do baby tortoises eat bugs? Certainly. Although most of the observations come from tortoise breeders, keepers, and farmers, there are also rare comments about it from field workers as well.

What percentage of the diet does this form in the wild? This is the million-dollar question, and the answer is that no one knows. Rare, opportunistic grabs? Routine part of the diet? Major part of the diet? We don't know. We know that babies will 'park and gorge' on bugs, fruits, flowers, etc. when they find something they like, but that does not mean it is normal or healthy.

What does this mean for caring for baby tortoises? I dunno. Protein = rapid growth, but is that good or bad? It is normal in sliders, box turtles, and many other species. We can complicate it even further by wondering if there is a difference in the various species of tortoises?

The safe and easy answer would be to simply say to follow someone's caresheet and call it good, but that assumes that we know EVERYTHING there is to know about the species and there is no more room for improvement. Since we don't even know 'everything' about human babies, we obviously don't know everything about tortoises.

And, that brings us back the the DEBATABLE TOPICS threads- a place to discuss exactly this sort of thing- ideas and thoughts we cannot necessarily prove but want to talk about!

 

[cdmay]

Thank you Carl! Did you not work with 'exotic' snakes early on.. good sources claim this?! Weren't you early on known for the 'rare' species of snakes that you bred? I knew that would get you going.
NERD --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well yeah, I've kept and bred a number of snake species but I was never what you would call a snake person per se. Likewise I've also kept and bred a bunch of geckos but I was never really a lizard guy either.
Turtles and tortoises were what I had first--since 1966 when I caught my first hatchling Florida cooters and striped mud turtles---and have the most experience with.

 

[Balboa]

Yup,
and my stand is rapidly becoming more and more convinced...
bugs, bugs, bugs, and lots of them, probably primarily.

---

In thinking about how to move forward with this idea, I have one problem. I'm in no position to run an experiment, hopefully that will change down the road, so if qualified individuals have the desire, please do. Always consider the safety of the torts, qualified individuals only please (ie experienced keepers who know how to watch for serious problems starting, before they become serious)

when/if I go about the experiment, I'm thinking I might start with a group of Boxies, as this is a known species for which the kind of environment proposed by Mark will work. I'd do this to ensure that I had a workable premise on raising conditions in the first place. I need to be sure I can correctly raise babies that I know need to be raised in dark places with creepy crawlies before I try babies I'm unsure on.

As Mark suggested, a virtual compost heap in a large tub, populated with earthworms and pill bugs. Heating from beneath would be mandatory, to replicate natural conditions of stable earth temps, and a considerably larger bio-mass of mulch than I actually had. I would likely still include a basking spot with UV, very direct though, like a sunbreak in the overhead foliage, so as to not overly disturb the inhabitants. Other occupants could possibly be a colony of roaches, would they possibly be too prolific though? Need to consult Tom on this. May need spiders to keep everything in check.

After I succesful run of boxies in such an enclosure, being sure to take good notes, and probably still trying to raise another group of boxies with more traditional means, I could move on to a known omnivore species such as redfoots, and then, temperate , maybe greeks, then the big deal desert. Could take years LOL

 

[terryo]

Yup,
and my stand is rapidly becoming more and more convinced...
bugs, bugs, bugs, and lots of them, probably primarily.

---

In thinking about how to move forward with this idea, I have one problem. I'm in no position to run an experiment, hopefully that will change down the road, so if qualified individuals have the desire, please do. Always consider the safety of the torts, qualified individuals only please (ie experienced keepers who know how to watch for serious problems starting, before they become serious)

when/if I go about the experiment, I'm thinking I might start with a group of Boxies, as this is a known species for which the kind of environment proposed by Mark will work. I'd do this to ensure that I had a workable premise on raising conditions in the first place. I need to be sure I can correctly raise babies that I know need to be raised in dark places with creepy crawlies before I try babies I'm unsure on.

As Mark suggested, a virtual compost heap in a large tub, populated with earthworms and pill bugs. Heating from beneath would be mandatory, to replicate natural conditions of stable earth temps, and a considerably larger bio-mass of mulch than I actually had. I would likely still include a basking spot with UV, very direct though, like a sunbreak in the overhead foliage, so as to not overly disturb the inhabitants. Other occupants could possibly be a colony of roaches, would they possibly be too prolific though? Need to consult Tom on this. May need spiders to keep everything in check.

After I succesful run of boxies in such an enclosure, being sure to take good notes, and probably still trying to raise another group of boxies with more traditional means, I could move on to a known omnivore species such as redfoots, and then, temperate , maybe greeks, then the big deal desert. Could take years LOL

---

I have been raising box turtles for over 30 years, in as natural environment as I could provide. I'm still doing it. My Father did it before me. Tom, from TurtleTails has also been doing this for years too. He has many pictures of his vivariums on his site. So your experiment is nothing new and has been proven to work. When providing a natural environment, I always throw in some of my own compost, which has lots of insects...worms, pill bugs...etc. Sometime I won't see a hatchling for days, but I have caught some great pictures many times of them eating small worms or pill bugs that they find in the substrate. I have never taken any out to soak, but always provided clean water. Heat is always from above...not below. I don't start feeding fruit or veggies until they are older and come out on their own. Low light, high warm humidity....plenty of leaf litter, plants, and insects...very effective for raising Box Turtle Hatchlings.

 

[Kristina]

I understand what Terry K. is saying, and honestly it is something I posted about several pages back - caution and moderation. I do think this idea has merit, BUT, I can see people taking this way too far. Just because juvenile torts may consume some protein in the wild, and just because adults may also, does not mean it is a good idea to start bombarding them with protein sources. I can see all kinds of liver and kidney issues cropping up because someone might run too far with this idea.

You have to pick your battles in this oh so interesting world of tortoise keeping. Terry K. chose to battle for humidity (misting them until the drip) - and so far, it has worked. It works for the Redfoots he raises, it has worked for Terry's Pio, and it is working for my little Black Cherry. It is also working for Tom's Sulcatas and Leopards.

Another one of Terry K.'s premises is NOT to overfeed. People have a tendency to do that - which is what he meant by "one is good, two is better." Overfeeding causes rapid growth (particularly overfeeding protein sources) which in turn causes gaps between the scutes, and a less than perfect looking tortoise. What is it also doing to the internal organs?

While I do 100% believe that baby tortoises eat and perhaps need some protein, I would be just as scared telling a new owner that as Terry K. would be. Why? Because some people just do not use common sense. If one worm is good, two worms are better! Hey, dog food and monkey chow have protein in them, why not use those?!?!

Do I think a little bite of worm or bug here and there is going to hurt? No, I don't *think* so. But I don't know. And unless it can be shown in a controlled manner, I will still continue to use protein sources in moderation. I no longer am of the school that thinks protein has anything to do with pyramiding - but I do think it can cause harm in other ways, in excess.

 

[Balboa]

I should have probably clarified that I meant to start with boxies not to prove the concept worked for them, but because as Terry has demonstrated I know it will work. She would be a number one consult for sure. At that point its not testing the turtles, its testing ME.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

It's always unbelieveable what these [ redfoot ] tortoises can be subjected to and still survive!

Last week I received an email from someone that was so concerned that their 3 yr. old.. that they had for a year.. was not eating the right things and is he healthy?.. on and on.

What do you suppose I should have told her?

Take a look at these pics she sent me..

How many of you would be proud to show how you have kept your 3 yr. old redfoot.. that looks like this one???

She had absolutely no idea what she was doing.. yet whatever it was.. it was working! Do you think I should give her grief about the "wrong" substrate? NO!

How do the 'newbe's' feel when we wear them out with all the tech. stuff? Ask TerryO about her bout with humidity.

Sorry 'bout this example in your thread Balboa.. a rare rare example... most are the total opposite.

NERD

 

[terryo]

She's just about perfect. I love when I see those growth lines so perfect...no big spaces. (Am I saying this right?)

 

[Balboa]

She is beautiful, and I WOULD like to know how she was keeping it.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

She is beautiful, and I WOULD like to know how she was keeping it.

I asked her Balboa.. we'll see what she says.

NERD

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I think facts about one species (say boxies) and applying them to another species , by assumption (say sulcata) is misguided, though it is certainly acceptable to draw experience from one species and taking it into consideration, when building a larger picture of a species.
Boxies and many sliders, cooters, and pond turtles, are almost exclusively cariverous as babies, as are bearded dragons. However, that does not go to say that a sulcata hatchling should fare well, treated the same as a boxie or a green iguana would be healthy treated to a diet like a baby bearded dragon.

With iguanas, we use alfalfa and other green parts of legumes and even supplement with bee pollen...this as proven relatively safe and a good way to provide additional protein. It is tapered to lesser amounts as the animals grow and the the case of bearded dragons, the diet is completely reversed from 25% veg to 75% animal protein as a htachling and to 75% veg and 25% protein as adults.

I think, as with igs, grassland tortoise species are best treated as vegetarian and protein sources should not be avoided, if they are plant based, but that animal material should be limited or eliminated altogether.
With forest species (boxies, wood, bod, spotted, manouria, kinixys, red/yellow foots), would not be harmed by being treated like bearded dragons until a year or two of age, where the ratio should be approaching 50/50, and progressing to the adult bearded dragon diet, with even less animal protien sources as adults, compared to bearded dragons. I thing, when animal sources are offered, it should be in insect form and the insects should be gutloaded on grains, fruits, and veggies, and above all, the trotoise must be well hydrated and with optium temperature and humidity.


I am nervous with my Manouria and have thus far offered no animal protein, although I have introduced pill bugs and they were munched, but spit out. I am nervous, b/c the daults are so similar to larger/grassland adults, even thoght the babies do echo boxies. I offer bee pollen dusted on the food three times a week as of this week. On a 100% veg diet, with no emphasis on protein, though they were fed small amounts of clover, trefoil, and other green parts of legumes, as they were available, but only in scant amounts; they sill doubled in size in less than a year. Clearly, they don't require animal sources of protein to have normal/healthy growth rates and to be healthy overall. I don't think a few earthworms would hurt, but at this point, I see no need to offer anything that isn't required for their health.

Humans are omnivores, our teeth structure and even brain size indicate that we are designed, by nature to eat both meat and veg/grains. However, a properly balanced (not easily done), vegetarian diet has proven to be a viable and healthier alternative to approaching our diet. Red meats are groosly overused by our culture and at the very leats, we could switch to a seafood and veg diet and be the picture of good nutrition.
Comparing that to our tortoises, with the limited excercise our tortoises get indoors (considering what I assume are most keepers with young torts) and with reduced exposure to natural sunlight, I think should be treated differenlty than wild tortoises, even if it was proven that all baby torts eat 50% protein in the wild. They are in captivity and therefore, the diet will have to be tailored to the tortoises other daily living conditions.

With tortoises doing just fine treated as strict herbiviores ( with the woodland torts as an exception), I see any experiments with protein on tem, that may or may not harm thier livers and kidneys, as unnessacarily cruel. When tortoises were kept too dry years ago and pyramiding resulted, there was a need to experiment with humidity, that by raising under current thought, could cause shell rot and URI, but there was a need to experiment...that is not soo with diet IMO.

Now try feeding baby uormastyx insects and I'd be for it, since currenlty we are not acheiving wild growth rates ( they are higher in the wild), on a veggie diet in captivity.

 

[Madkins007]

I think facts about one species (say boxies) and applying them to another species , by assumption (say sulcata) is misguided, though it is certainly acceptable to draw experience from one species and taking it into consideration, when building a larger picture of a species.

{snip}

With tortoises doing just fine treated as strict herbiviores ( with the woodland torts as an exception), I see any experiments with protein on tem, that may or may not harm thier livers and kidneys, as unnessacarily cruel. When tortoises were kept too dry years ago and pyramiding resulted, there was a need to experiment with humidity, that by raising under current thought, could cause shell rot and URI, but there was a need to experiment...that is not soo with diet IMO.
{snip}

(Emphasis above is mine)

This is sort of the point. With almost no wild or field data, and most baby tortoise diets based mostly on theory and experience because of this, the question might be asked- what if the babies NEED protein for proper development, like sliders and boxies do? Maybe the cruelty is keeping them from meats? There is anecdotal evidence that feeding high protein to Sulcata and other grassland species improves reproductive success.

It is certainly a valid point that some tortoises have different dietary requirements, but things like the amino acids requirements for building healthy tissues are about the same across the board.

This is why something like this is such an interesting debatable issue!

 

[DeanS]

I'm curious if Tom has started feeding his sulcata and leopard babies an alternative protein supplement! I'm kinda balking at feeding pinkies to my yearlings...I'm wondering if it would do more harm than good at this point!?!?

 

[Balboa]

biglove4bigtorts,
Mark already put it pretty well, the fact is we know little to nothing about the natural life of baby tortoises in general.
I agree it would be irresponsible at this point to start loading up a baby sulcata on protein. I seriously doubt an occasional bug will harm them.

The start of this whole thread stems from thoughts on how to emulate the natural life of tortoise babies as closely as possible in captive environments. When looking at things logically... if a baby sulcata required 100% vegetarian diet in the wild... there would be NO sulcata. Plants don't grow where they live. So what DO they eat? How can a creature that avoids sunlight produce D3?

Box and Terrestrial turtles are the closest related species to tortoises (to put it mildly) and live in the same conditions that baby tortoises do. Its like tortoises are the turtles that "grew up", but baby tortoises need to go back to that primordial lifestage and live like their ancestors a bit, until developed enough to survive drier, harsher environments. Hence it makes sense to consider how baby turtles live.

Just a theory, and here to be debated.

 

[onarock]

So without a witness we are concluding that sulcata hatchlings dont have access to plant matter? (Balboa: plants dont grow where they live). I guess we are also assuming that they live exclusively in burrows?? For how long? Did any of you read my previous post?

 

[Balboa]

LOL yes I did, and it is interesting, and I apologize for NOT responding before we went off on different directions.
The trouble for me is, I've never had a hatchling(tortoise that is), not sure I ever will, might be nice to breed some someday. I really have no observations on their physical developement at that point.

It seems logical that a yolk sack meets many of their needs for a little while, I believe in chickens the yolk is largely protein, somebody correct me please if that's wrong, so would make sense the Torts sac will carry that need a while, but once its gone its gone, and there's only so much processing a little body can do. It doesn't seem likely that they have a nutrient deficiency work around built in that operates while small, and lose once larger, but who knows.


I recall reading that in many species, they do exactly as you said, they just stay buried for a long time, its usually fall or winter when they hatch, so they need to literally start off hibernating so to speak, the yolksac keeps them alive until spring when they can crawl out with the "thaw". During this time I'd imagine their nervous systems are still developing, etc.

---

lol and I forgot to address the "burrows"

we are assuming they live hidden. This is the one factor that CAN be concluded from what we know about baby tortoises. They are NEVER seen wandering around with the adults in nature. They are somewhere else... out of sight of large predators. Wherever EXACTLY it is will be species locale dependant. In the true desert the only place to hide is in the ground. In the forest, its under logs, in thick brush. These are places with low light, and are often the only places in an environment to find sufficient humidity to maintain such a fragile, little life.

 

[onarock]

LOL yes I did, and it is interesting, and I apologize for NOT responding before we went off on different directions.
The trouble for me is, I've never had a hatchling(tortoise that is), not sure I ever will, might be nice to breed some someday. I really have no observations on their physical developement at that point.

It seems logical that a yolk sack meets many of their needs for a little while, I believe in chickens the yolk is largely protein, somebody correct me please if that's wrong, so would make sense the Torts sac will carry that need a while, but once its gone its gone, and there's only so much processing a little body can do. It doesn't seem likely that they have a nutrient deficiency work around built in that operates while small, and lose once larger, but who knows.


I recall reading that in many species, they do exactly as you said, they just stay buried for a long time, its usually fall or winter when they hatch, so they need to literally start off hibernating so to speak, the yolksac keeps them alive until spring when they can crawl out with the "thaw". During this time I'd imagine their nervous systems are still developing, etc.

---

lol and I forgot to adress the "burrows"

we are assuming they live hidden. This is the one factor that CAN be concluded from what we know about baby tortoises. They are NEVER seen wandering around with the adults in nature. They are somewhere else... out of sight of large predators. Wherever EXACTLY it is will be species local dependant. In the true desert the only place to hide is in the ground. In the forest, its under logs, in thick brush. These are places with low light, and are often the only places in an environment to find sufficient humidity to maintain such a fragile, little life.

---

LOL Balboa..... I gotta be honest, I laughed after reading it right as I was hitting the Post button. What was I thinking, postnatal "fetus" development HA!