Badmouthing

[Meg90]

Badmouthing.

Is it fair? OK? Just?

I keep seeing comments OVER and OVER in the debatable topics thread where sentences like "when you have more experience and know better, you'll agree with me" or "my tortoises disprove this theory or care practice, so I obviously know better"

There are also cute little phrases like "anti sulcata" floating around now, that serve only to badmouth. I cannot even fathom another reason for this phrase.

Or the comment in the recent thread telling people to "leave the emotions at home" (with their female companions) when talking on the forum.

ALL of these things serve no purpose but to belittle, or diminish the opinions of another member.

But my question is this: WHY is it "ok" to do so?

It IS well within the rules---if you comment on a thread that someone's POST is stupid, its not a personal attack, just your "opinion". But if you say a member IS stupid, that comment is considered a personal attack.

IMO this nasty-comment-on-a-thread practice is a blatant loop hole, and those members that use this tactic on a daily, or general basis are stomping all over what this forum stands for.

And what about sending a nasty Private Message (PM)?

THAT'S not discussed in the rules either--they only pertain to public posts. It has also been said in another recent thread by a mod, that PMs should NEVER be made public, and would probably be deleted if they were.

So, if you can send a dirty PM and get away with it, should you?

Should it really not be against the rules???

If I called someone names in a thread, I'd get in trouble. But If I do it in a PM its OK?

Along more badmouthing routes,

The "experience" card is touted ALOT on this forum, and not always in a positive way. Practices that are not condoned by the general public are given as advice to newbies in their initial threads, because a single group of tortoises survived the change---so it must be true.

This fits in with my "badmouthing" thread title because the tried and true care methods, such as providing the proper amounts of UVB are bashed and belittled only because of the debate in the science behind it.

Most keepers here are disgusted with pet stores, and their practices. But one of the number-one things that a pet stores never recommend is the use of UVB. So why are "experienced" keepers giving out the same advice? (And I'm not talking the whole substitute-actual-sunlight-instead-of-a-bulb advice here--but words of keepers who claim to raise torts with no access to either of these things)

I'm wondering WHY everyone has gotten a God complex lately--The whole, I know best, and if I can't make you believe it, I'll just pick at you tactic.

Threads on new enclosures, or the smooth growth of young tortoises are picked at and negatively commented on. I've had this happen to me in recent weeks.

So why are innocent threads are being turned into bickering matches, and why does everybody seems primed to jump down everybody else's throat???

Is it the weather? What?

I guess I just want some answers really, to the first few questions of this thread---WHY do people think it is ok to badmouth, and pick at other members?

 

[Yvonne G]

I don't see that there is anything to "debate" on this subject. Can't even think of what would be a "pro" or what would be a "con." Maybe it would do better in "Off topic Chit Chat."

As for the PM part of your post, we (mods) can't be responsible to what goes back and forth in a PM. We don't have access to them. All you have to do when you see a PM coming from someone you don't want to deal with is delete it and don't read it. Don't respond and keep the fire burning.

One thing I've noticed is that quite a few of our members feel they have to respond or defend. If you read something that you don't like, it soon loses its appeal if no one responds to it. Everyone just needs to try to let it go. Don't keep it alive by getting upset and adding fuel to the fire with an angry or upset post.

 

[Meg90]

I think there is a debate here---the two sides are either for sneaking comments in when you can get away with it, or against that practice.

As well as for giving out unproven advice, or against doing it.

 

[sammi]

I must say, since I joined the forum in October, I have seen some changes in the attitude of the forum as a whole. I leave no one out, and I speak of the forum as one body [after all, if we didn't have each other, we wouldn't be a forum, right?]. Anywho, I have only been here a couple months, and I feel as though the attitude of the forum has become slightly stand-off-ish. As Meg said, I do not believe it should be "ok" for people to badmouth others, but I feel that maybe the reason people react like that to certain statements is just because that's the way the person is. I don't think people are thinking "Hmm..I think its "ok" for me to badmouth this person, so I'm going to post: etc..." I believe they just type exactly how they would respond either in real life face to face, or here on a forum. On another note, I have been reading these threads that turn into angry debates with people attacking each other, but most of the time I'm pretty much just in shock about what people are saying to even respond.

As for giving out unproven advice, I think that most people are just giving advice for what has worked for them, and don't use a disclaimer such as "This is just my opinion of what you should do because it has worked for me", Which brings us back to a statement I saw a while back here on the forum, that "every keeper has their own way of raising their torts, there is no "right" way to do it." Many people have figured out all different ways to raise their torts "correctly". I admit I am one person who does this. I give out advice, despite not being a "veteran" tortoise keeper. I only say what I have honestly tried, and what has honestly worked for me.

This is just my two cents! I post this as nicely as I can, because I try to see the good in everyone, even if they do seem "bad" to everyone else. I don't like to see arguments and people attacking each other. I do get offended by certain posts, and others will make me angry, but I'm the type of person to not advertise how I feel. As far as everyone knows, I'm always as happy as a clam

 

[Yvonne G]

According to the OP's post, this debate is supposed to be about:

"I think there is a debate here---the two sides are either for sneaking comments in when you can get away with it, or against that practice.

As well as for giving out unproven advice, or against doing it. "


This whole thread has gotten so off track. Per the rules of debate posted just a day or two ago, if the debate doesn't stay on track the posts will be deleted. so I have deleted them. Meg (the OP) didn't ask for comments on whether or not you all felt Tyler's comment was sexist.

I hate to be the bad guy here, but whether or not Tyler offended you with that comment (personally, it didn't offend me), gives you no reason to all jump all over him. Haven't any of you ever said something you wished you hadn't?

 

[chadk]

Life is too short to take offense so much. Instead of trying to live life not being offended, stick with trying not to be offensive to others and lead by example. Like bad drivers on the road, there is nothing your offfense or anger is going to do to fix the issue out there on the road. Just take a deep breath, and move on.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Absolutely Yvonne -- I have this stone I could send to those "without sin"...

Terry K

 

[Yvonne G]

Ok, here's my side of this debate issue:

It is never ok to sneak in comments, thinking you can try to get away with something. If that happens and a moderator doesn't recognize it, a PM to one of the moderators is in order.

As for giving out advice - if I joined this forum to learn about tortoises, not having one of my own, and read all of the posts on the forum, my reading is educating me. I can learn from all of the forum member's experiences posted here. So, if a question is asked and I know the answer from all my reading, why shouldn't I be allowed to answer? But in my opinion, because I don't have first hand experience, I should start my answer with, "I don't have a tortoise, however I read here on the forum that....."

 

[GBtortoises]

"Education does not provide experience, just a means to gain it."

A quote from my 11th grade Chemistry teacher Mr. Doyle. I thought then that he was a pretty smart guy and as I get older I'm finding out he was even smarter than I realized!

 

[terryo]

You are absolutely right Yvonne, but...Meg has some valued points too. Instead of some people sticking to the subject, they will bring the other person's personal lifestyle, or their own into the "debate" or post. I've been on this forum since it first began over two years ago, when everyone was friendly and not so egotistical. I also came here to learn about tortoises. I never thought this forum would evolve on to such a personal level. As good as the debate section is, it has brought out the best and the worst in all of us who participate. If we are debating on a subject, should we throw in what's happening at the poster's house, or in their personal life? Maybe if we all just stick to the topics in the thread, accept what the other person is saying as their personal experience, or opinion, and most of all RESPECT each other.

 

[Candy]

Meg let me start out by saying that I'm sorry this has happened to you. (Edit: This post had nothing to do with the debate. )

 

[TylerStewart]

It IS well within the rules---if you comment on a thread that someone's POST is stupid, its not a personal attack, just your "opinion". But if you say a member IS stupid, that comment is considered a personal attack.

Maybe I'm missing something, but that statement seems accurate to me. I would never call someone "stupid," but there are certainly stupid things said. Personal attacks shouldn't happen here, but if someone says something stupid, pointing it out isn't a personal attack.

(edited because sentence was not in keeping with the debate topic)

 

[purpod]

Hiya Meg ~

I have felt the change in the forum too, since I joined many moons ago ~ and I do not think it is "okay" to personally attack, whether in public or in private. Even little nasty 'jabs' should be unacceptable, IMHO...

Everyone has different experiences with different tort's, enclosures, etc.. and so perhaps a "This is just from my own personal experience.." statement might be an appropriate way for those who think others have posted a "stooopid" post might help dissolve the personal attack feeling.

And Meg, when I felt someone had personally attacked what I wrote (Even tho I had said that my posting was about my Leopards & was simply just my "3 cents"), I wrote to a moderator about it. Now, the Mod did not feel that there was a personal attack (which I still disagree with) but at least I was able to bring it to the attention of a Mod. Perhaps if you are getting nasty pm's, you should copy and paste to a Mod & see if that won't resolve some of the issue?

I hope we can all remain as a strong support system for each other, and for those who come in to just check us out. As Terry had noted, a bit of respect can go a long way.

Wishing a peaceful posting to all!!
Purpod

 

[Yvonne G]

When I told Meg that her first post didn't sound like a "debate"able issue, she wrote back:

I think there is a debate here---the two sides are either for sneaking comments in when you can get away with it, or against that practice.

As well as for giving out unproven advice, or against doing it.

This says nothing about the PM system. If someone wants to open a new debate about the PM system, go right ahead...but in this particular debate, if you don't stick to the above shown rules put down by Meg herself, your post is going to be deleted.

 

[TylerStewart]

This says nothing about the PM system. If someone wants to open a new debate about the PM system, go right ahead...but in this particular debate, if you don't stick to the above shown rules put down by Meg herself, your post is going to be deleted.

How was my line about the PMs off topic when the original post mentions PMs, and your first reply said essentially the same thing I had said? Now I'm really confused.... So much is being edited in and out of this thread, none of it makes any sense anymore.

 

[Meg90]

That's my point--the mods don't care about PMs, which I think is wrong.

I too, am tired of the off topic posts being deleted. I have some threads that are weeks old that I want "cleaned up" if this is going to be the norm now. Should I PM them to someone? Several of the posts "do not fit" so maybe they should just be deleted, huh?

And Tyler, I find it informative that you think its OK to say something bitey or negative about someone's POST (but not about them). But if you feel that way then that whole debate on your little comment should not have happened. Most people said the COMMENT was sexist, not you. Its a one way street, son.

 

[Yvonne G]

Ok...that's it! Even the originator of the debate can't stick to the two topics introduced. I'm through with this subject. If you all want a free-for-all, go for it. Life's too short for all this trouble. I'm going outside with my tortoises.

 

[Jacqui]

That's my point--the mods don't care about PMs, which I think is wrong.

I can't say for the rest, but I do care. If you get a PM that you feel is abusive, it should be reported. Now once you send it to us Mods, it's up to us to see if we can also see it's abusive. I guarantee if I believe it is abusive, I will get involved...very involved.

Since it has now been brought up how there are no rules covering PMs, as soon as I post this, I will go into the Mod area and call for there to be an inclusion about PMs. No abuse should be allowed in this forum, public or private...that is my beliefs.

 

[Meg90]

Do you want me to send you my PM Jacqui? Other mods told me they wouldn't do anything.

 

[Candy]

Thank you Jacqui. I am very happy that you said that I don't believe anyone should send an inmature PM to anyone on here and not have it looked at if asked by a mod I don't care who you are it's just not right.