Battling or Neutralizing Oxalic acid or Oxalates in the gut

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

Greetings fellow tortophiles!
Peace with you and your "pet" or zookeepee.

While I realize the ultimate answer to this question will be:
"Just don't feed your tort too much food high in oxalic acid"
or,
"Just vary the diet like you're supposed to, some oalates are expected and normal",
as is the best policy...

I was also wondering if any experienced nutritionists or long-term herpetology people knew --

Humans seeking maximum, natural calcium absorption (optimized bioavailability of their serving of Ca) have developed some ways of eating certain foods, along with their oxalate-high course (in the same sitting or meal) by combining certain foods to mix in the gut which can partly defeat some of the oxalates by either neutralizing them or, at least, more safely binding or reacting with Ca before the oxalic acid does.

Two methods I have seen are:
1) Dairy (not for torts)
and
2) Citric acid

The citric acid thing will certainly, already be a thought since it's so present in so many great tort foods so, even if it doesn't help, it certainly can't hurt.

Kidney stones are probably due to oxalates, commonly in torts, but here's something very unexpected:
Whats even more bizarre and been lesser-knownis that too little Ca can cause kidney stones in humans and pigs because when you reabsorb your tissues' Ca it sticks in your kidneys! :
Not to go on a tangent, but contrasting the phenomenon of poo'ing out unused calcium when oxalic acid binds with Ca (so it doesn't get utilized by you, yet it still goes into the bloodstream and has o be filtered by the kidneys) is an almost opposite phenomenon of forming kidney stones from having too little Ca in the diet chronically.
I was in communication with a Dr. Kennedy who got an MD PhD after being a doctor of veterinary medicine (because of the following). He was a vet that did multitudes of farm animals. People don't get hip or knee replacements for cows or pigs, so the conflicts of interests are different. Nutrition is way more pushed in veterinary medicine than humans'. So he noticed two things: one was that pigs lost weight when they switched from cooked potatoes to raw (an enzyme revelation).
The other was -- pigs kept getting kidney stones. First they tried lowering the Ca levels. It got worse. Then they raised the Ca levels and the kidney stones went away completely at a certain, large farm. It turned out --
when pigs are too low in Ca they need to leech it from their tissues to survive. So they (and we) release a secretion into the blood stream that releases the Ca from existing tissues and/or bone so muscles and nerves can operate without cramping etc. This recycled Ca form is so incredibly bioavailable it is too much so, and sticks in the kidneys when it cycles through them without, yet, being used. This is how Ca deficiency can actually give someone kidney stones and wrongly convince them to "stop taking Tums" even though they're slowly eating themselves from lack of calcium intake (and probably eating spinach on top of it to exacerbate things).

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Greetings fellow tortophiles!
Peace with you and your "pet" or zookeepee.

While I realize the ultimate answer to this question will be:
"Just don't feed your tort too much food high in oxalic acid"
or,
"Just vary the diet like you're supposed to, some oalates are expected and normal",
as is the best policy...

I was also wondering if any experienced nutritionists or long-term herpetology people knew --

Humans seeking maximum, natural calcium absorption (optimized bioavailability of their serving of Ca) have developed some ways of eating certain foods, along with their oxalate-high course (in the same sitting or meal) by combining certain foods to mix in the gut which can partly defeat some of the oxalates by either neutralizing them or, at least, more safely binding or reacting with Ca before the oxalic acid does.

Two methods I have seen are:
1) Dairy (not for torts)
and
2) Citric acid

The citric acid thing will certainly, already be a thought since it's so present in so many great tort foods so, even if it doesn't help, it certainly can't hurt.

Kidney stones are probably due to oxalates, commonly in torts, but here's something very unexpected:
Whats even more bizarre and been lesser-knownis that too little Ca can cause kidney stones in humans and pigs because when you reabsorb your tissues' Ca it sticks in your kidneys! :
Not to go on a tangent, but contrasting the phenomenon of poo'ing out unused calcium when oxalic acid binds with Ca (so it doesn't get utilized by you, yet it still goes into the bloodstream and has o be filtered by the kidneys) is an almost opposite phenomenon of forming kidney stones from having too little Ca in the diet chronically.
I was in communication with a Dr. Kennedy who got an MD PhD after being a doctor of veterinary medicine (because of the following). He was a vet that did multitudes of farm animals. People don't get hip or knee replacements for cows or pigs, so the conflicts of interests are different. Nutrition is way more pushed in veterinary medicine than humans'. So he noticed two things: one was that pigs lost weight when they switched from cooked potatoes to raw (an enzyme revelation).
The other was -- pigs kept getting kidney stones. First they tried lowering the Ca levels. It got worse. Then they raised the Ca levels and the kidney stones went away completely at a certain, large farm. It turned out --
when pigs are too low in Ca they need to leech it from their tissues to survive. So they (and we) release a secretion into the blood stream that releases the Ca from existing tissues and/or bone so muscles and nerves can operate without cramping etc. This recycled Ca form is so incredibly bioavailable it is too much so, and sticks in the kidneys when it cycles through them without, yet, being used. This is how Ca deficiency can actually give someone kidney stones and wrongly convince them to "stop taking Tums" even though they're slowly eating themselves from lack of calcium intake (and probably eating spinach on top of it to exacerbate things).

That bit that I made large type. Not a known issue with tortoises. Really! Pigs are not tortoises. Two well regarded Reptile Vets have reported they have looked at many (?) tortoise patients, and not found one calcium accretion. Just saying, the oxalate is not a problem with tortoises, and has been taken so far out of context from other species it is now a information dogma that needs your help to overcome.

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

I mistyped, I meant bladder stone, not kidney.
Excuse me profusely for that Will, but I believe that falls under calcium accretion (of the urinary tract) aka. urolith.
Show your well-regarded reptile vets the following link, one where they have developed specific procedures from regularly removing said calcium accretions of the UT specifically in 1) California Desert tortoises and, more relevant here and in my life: 2 ) African Spur Thigh a.k.a. sulcatas
They may be particularly interested in the Symptons and Diagnoses sections.
http://www.lbah.com/word/reptile/tortoise-bladder-stones/

Maybe google something before you attack someone instead of asking a couple vets off the cuff. 2 out of three vets are arrogant and under-informed for how overconfident they are, ask any vet tech working on his degree before he becomes one, while he's still working underneath them.

I can't count the rep vet sites which exist on this topic,and they een come up if you acdently type kidney instead of bladder, like I did.

Remember, you attacked that they happen as much or more than you attacked my against-the-grain oxalate hypothesis which I'm not betting the farm is accurate (or I'd have said certainly, not probably). If you hadn't replied, after I read the protein-hypothesis article, I'd have liked to edit my probably to a possibly, something not particularly worthy of such an uproar. Nice to meet you, too.

What I would like to correct more than kidney vs. bladder (when it comes to diet-caused calcium secretion of the urinary tract), though, is the way it read --- it's admittedly not that I mean to say it's some super-duper common plague of pet owners, but that when they do form (as in the case of the one with the gaping plastron skute removed in the pictures of the all-too-common Ca accretion removal from the UT), I was proposing that these stones may well be caused by excessive oxalic acid intake in an under-varied diet in tortoises, a "probably" I couldn't help but give it a "probably" even if I'm possibly wrong. You see, 99% of any vets you asked about the pigs' stones would inevitably have said (just like the human MD's who are also so commonly in err) "pigs must be gettin' too much Ca or D3," which is admittedly the guess one vet makes, taking a stab at is causing all the mysterious bladder stones (aka Ca accretions) they are removing from all these torts UT's. Actually we're "probably" both wrong and they may be eating too much protien, from what I'm reading here at LBAH (torts produce ammonia when they process protein and then it turns to uric acid which in access with dehydration causes urates and boom accretions.

And I quote, "When we analyze tortoise bladder stones chemically they are comprised almost exclusively of urates."
<giggle>, I also quote, "Some of these stones grow to tremendous size, and it is a wonder that these animals can survive with such a problem. Other animal species get bladder stones, but none of them are anywhere near as large as tortoise bladder stones."

Perhaps I should go back and regurgitate their article back at them and capitalize "It is usually a problem in captive tortoises" a bit out of context and tell them Really! "Two well regarded Reptile Vets have reported they have looked at many (?) tortoise patients, and not found one calcium accretion!"

Now that I've reacted to you coming on so strong criticizing me with ginormous print and exclamations, and now that I've admitted my own mistake(s) if there really is/are as much of one(s) as you say, let me thank you for the opinion that the oxalic acid thing is a dogma taken from virtually unrelated species.
I will note that and see how many other people feeding their tortoises nothing but available foods high in oxalates have great, long-lived specimens.
It does stand to reason that they would evolve something to cope with this Scary Calcium-Sucking Monster, and that thought thrills me.
Collards have, what, 14 times as much a as P? This is great news -- my yard is covered with purslane and sweet potato leaves (not potato).
I commend you for being ahead of your time if you are as correct as I, indeed, would like you to be.
Great news!
But I will enjoy seeing others chime in and agree, excuse me if I don't take your, or even just your two vets who have never heard of Ca accretions in tortoises, words for it alone.

See, that's the tricky thing about a accretions of the UT -- the torts don't speak much English to tell the pain.

I know you're going to come back and attack me for suggesting it may be oxalates binding to calcium and sticking in the UT in tortoises (like it is becoming so widely published is the case in humans, but remember -- your first attack was that Ca accretions of the UT in tortoises was as ridiculous as oxalates possibly causing them in part (sorry if I thought probably before reading about the protein article). Funny thing is, many veterinarians and MDs, alike, find that pig story fascinating, probable while initially counter-intuitive (especially when the correct diagnosis is the opposite of the popular one -- that's the whole point -- that less calcium made more stones and more Ca made less) and they typically aren't as quick to act like discoveries in different families of animals mightn't lead to revelations in others.

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

I kind of feel emotionally gypped that my first handshake here was so aggressively confrontational.
I thought I was clear overall that this would be a hypothetical, boundry-pushing discussion, not a tried and true tutorial for newbies FAQ's.
Kind of ironic a little hypothetical knowledge-boundry-pushing would incite comments of dogma.
"Stick to what we already know, that's absurd!", lol, that's what dogma is...it's from not questioning things.

And what is so absurd about proposing that, if oxalates are so ubiquitously known to bind with electrolytes and cause UT accretions in humans, that perhaps it has a hand in all the stones being ripped out all of these languishing sulcatas and Cali desert torts?

So it's a different animal.
My whole point about the pigs was that a veterinary discovery in animals led to a nutritional revelation helping countless humans. Period.
Forgive me for thinking a discovery in humans (excessive oxalates causing stones in some) might be relevant to tortoises with their stones plastered all over the net.
There are likely more similarities in how our kidneys and bladders work than differences.

And really the initial query was, had anyone theorized about maximizing their tortoises bio-available calcium (not stone prevention) by using a method discussed regarding people, such as feeding a safe amount of citric acid-containing food (common for tort food, like grass) along with the oxalic acid-high food in question? Maybe safe citric acid levels for a sulcata wouldn't offset enough oxylate to matter, but that's a differet answer than basically "That's stupid, I know veterinarians, stop misinforming people."

It's certainly safe to try, we're probably already doing it by accident, since some citric acid is present in some level in so much vegetation fed to tortoises.

Humans can supposedly preemt some of the calcium binding to oxalic acid in their gut by eating dairy (no good for torts) or something with citric acid.
I know too much like citrus is no good for a sulcata, but I keep seeing ascorbic and citric acid on the list of constituents for many tort foods in safer levels a.k.a in foods listed as safe for sulcatas, for example.

Or maybe it just plain isn't a consideration, but that's how progress is made, informed discourse and questioning things -- again a bit ironic I'd be accused of promoting inaccurate dogma by questioning the status quo.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

It's called debate. I've made no assertions of your character, that would be what is an attack. I'm interested in the topic and challenge you to produce evidence that your assertion is based on some published facts I may have overlooked There are numerous ways to draw attention to a specific passage/sentence in a post, I just used the keyboard feature of text enlargement. That is my framework of the current conversation. Debate the topic please.

Back to the topic on hand...

From your quoted source http://www.lbah.com/word/reptile/tortoise-bladder-stones/

"
Cause
The exact cause is unknown. Dehydration plays a significant factor in this disease. Many people believe that tortoises get all the water they need from their food. This is not true, they need to drink water also, so make sure fresh water is available all day and also periodic soaking is recommended. Use lukewarm water, make sure the water level is no higher than the beginning of the top shell (carapace), and soak for up to 10 minutes. Dry your tortoise off before placing back in its normal environment. Do not soak if your tortoise has surgery unless confirmed by your veterinarian.

Diet is also a factor in this disease. For all tortoises the overwhelming majority of their diet is from plants. If the diet is too high in protein, which would be from feeding dog or cat food, there might be excess urate production, leading to an increased chance of a bladder stone being formed. Your tortoise’s diet should consist of a high percentage of grass and a lesser amount of green, leafy vegetables."

The vets I'm referring to are Susan Donaghue and Thomas Boyer, both are or have been the primary instructors for practicing vets in this topic. Research vets have also weighed in on the matter, with no published account of oxalate based 'stones'.

My role is understanding their work as it relates to tortoise nutrition. I'm not presenting any primary research. If you have primary research you care to share, I would welcome reading about it. Otherwise we only have the work of others to offer as evidence for what we are saying. I have not found any evidence that 'stones' found in any body organ of a tortoise are the result of high oxalate content of food. That sometimes calcium is bound to protein-based calculi is not so far been found to also include oxalates in the diet.

Oxalates have a fate path when ingested.

Oxolates have certain fates when in the diet of the tortoise, there are only so many paths that occur.
One, the tortoise eats, it, and defecates it.
Two, the tortoise eats it and it binds with calcium in the gut and the tortoise defecates it.
Three, the tortoise eats it it's absorbed in the intestines and it plays numerous roles in bodily functions gets broken down and is eliminated as part of metabolic waste through the intestines and kidneys.
Four, it gets absorbed by the intestines and gets eliminated through the kidneys or intestines as un-used whole molecules.
Five, it gets absorbed by the intestines ends up in the kidneys and bonds to excess calcium and forms oxolate crystals/stones in the kidneys or bladder.

According to vets that have lectured on this topic "five" has never been recorded in any scientific or veterinary literature. Yet that is the basis of concern, never happened to a level where any vet published it. No vet school students, no one.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/okra-oxalates-vs-calcium-content.127130/#post-1183210
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22443442
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9706560
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9951413

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

The reason I was a little disappointed was I already respected you, enjoyed your posts, and this isn't an open YoutTube channel of millions, but a special interest group I wanted to become a member of, and I was more taken aback by your tone than your disagreeing with me. So I'm glad if we can get back onto a better foot.

That is what conjecture and hypotheses are about. If it was already published that excessive oxalic acid in an under-varied diet was a major contributing factor to the veterinarian-admittedly mysterious causes behind surprisingly common tortoise bladder stones, then it would not be conjecture or hypotheses, it would be existing knowledge.

In fact, you appeared to me to indicate that there is too much dogma going around about oxalic acid being much of a factor at all, and at my help was needed in order to reverse it. Maybe that's true, that would be great. I wholeheartedly welcome the thought, and it would be just like all of the accurate information regarding tarantulas that got debunked even though the debunked "facts" were based on initially believable science. I'm absolutely welcome to entertain the idea that oxalic acid is too feared, and to pretty much just ignore it.

But if you go by research, there are experts and well-known tortoise conservation outfits galore that all say (to paraphrase):
You must feed you tortoise many regular foods fairly high in oxalic acid, but consider it, because it an bind to a and deprive your herp of Ca and you'll wind up with metabolic bone disease.

Now if this information is false (which was the whole basis for me wondering if feeding something to help defeat oxalates, like humans are doing, to increase bioavailable Ca to your tortoise, not to avoid stones, that was just a related, side tangent)... and if, as you indicated in your first response, we shouldn't spread the dogma that oxalic acid is to be feared or respected in tortoise diets -- even if this is true (and I hope you're right) then simply doing research will actually indicate you're wrong, for the most part.

You ask "were's the research"? That's what making educated guesses against the status quo is about about, and that's the reason I even brought up the pigs. There was more than "five vets" telling the world we (or pigs) almost expressly get kidney stones from excessive a intake, and Dr. Kennedy turned both veterinary and human medicine paradigms on their ear by proving too litte Ca could be even worse if not more common in humans and budget family farms than too much, and that them feeding on their own bodily Ca was causing stones in Ca deficient times.

There was zero research proving that before it was adeptly conjectured either. "Not one", as you say, but it was correct, and now there is.

And I did know that human kidney stones caused by excessive oxalates left traces of their oxalate origin in the stones.
Are you telling me they do?
If not, then why would we look for the evidence in tortoises.
If so, then good point.

 

[RosemaryDW]

Perhaps this thread would be better place in the debatable topics forum? http://www.tortoiseforum.org/forums/debatable-topics.47/

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I'm focused on the matter as it relates to tortoises and diet. Applying research in other organisms is a start to understand what happens in tortoises. So far the crossover applications from other animals, even aquatic chelonians, does not seem to work with tortoises. Tortoises water management is unique and exists in even the most ancient living species.

Somewhere here in TFO I posted the link to an aquatic turtles whose concretion was "potentially" associated with oxalates in the diet.

My own observations have been to examine 'liths' with my eyes and nose, they all have smelt like urate/urea concretions. I did not do a chemical analysis of the 'lith'.

Most practicing vets who remove stones do not apply any chemical analysis to the 'lith' either.

With a large record of 'lith' removal, but a small record of 'lith' analysis there is a chance more will be analyzed. Boyer has analyzed some, and at conferences where he is the 'authority' that the other vets learn from, he has sought evidence that any 'lith' from a tortoise is based on a calcium oxalate concentration. So far he not not found any.

So the dogma is that these 'liths' are the result of an oxalate high content diet. At this time, for tortoises, there is no evidence to that concern. On the contrary side of the argument is the diet of the few species that have been extensively studied in the wild, primarily the western north American species of Desert tortoises. Their diet is very high in oxalate rich foods. Their lith are associated with an imbalance of protein and water

The link you offered http://www.lbah.com/word/reptile/tortoise-bladder-stones/ is in alignment with that much more serious issue, and that is hydration.

It is also a caution to not consider the diet of adults as they same as neonates or juveniles. They absolutely need protein. Maintenance protein levels for adults is a different matter than the protein requirements for growing juveniles. That they gets much hydration mitigates the errors in amount (on the maybe to high side) well, and the result of too little is stunted growth.

I do not seek to feed diet items especially rich in oxalate, but I do not specifically exclude diet items with it either. I don't sort out the spinach from "Spring Mix" as an example.

And yes I know that a lack of evidence is not high quality evidence. Not finding oxalate based liths does not mean they never occur. But in light of all the published accounts of liths in tortoises, that none have been found, well that is evidence of a sort, enough, I hope to compel those with the liths and resources to have them analysed will look at what that thing they removed really is.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195561608001599

can anyone get this?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...=Quantitative_Analysis_of_4468_Uroliths_R.pdf

Found it, no tortoise oxalate based 'liths'.

 

[Markw84]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195561608001599

can anyone get this?

Will

I have access to the whole article from Sciencedirect. if you still need it PM me.

 

[Markw84]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/46291802/j.cvsm.2008.09.00520160606-6580-1jhxe9q.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1499460181&Signature=hQloHVQpgw79VXLLjW678oK+AqI=&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=Quantitative_Analysis_of_4468_Uroliths_R.pdf

Found it, no tortoise oxalate based 'liths'.

In fact, out of 246 reptile uroliths analyzed, not one contained any oxalates.

 

[Markw84]

@Will @Jeffrey Jeffries - is that the end of the discussion? I was following this with interest as so much literature and "advice" out there is always to avoid oxalates as much as possible. In fact, my sulcata enclosure was taken over by oxalis this spring and I was concerned, but I would have had to rip everything out and replant to get rid of it. Couldn't use weed killers. My tortoises spend hours grazing on the lawn every day, and they were getting mostly oxalis. The amount of urates they passed skyrocketed. Piles of "sour cream" became common. I watched for possible impaction (stones) looking for any signs I might pick up. But all seems normal except for the amount of urates. With their grazing and the heat, the grass is taking back over. They all seem completely fine and growing a fast as ever. I bet my largest has got to be 175 lbs now.

I know you, Will, have long been a proponent of debunking oxalate as a precipitator for stones. So much of diet advice is based on dog and cat, or farm animal studies, but how it applies to chelonians is a great area for study & debate.

I know with my experience, I have only had a tortoise with stones twice now in the 50 years I've been keeping them. And that represent quite a few tortoises and I have never been cautious about what to feed. Many items consumed were not recommended by the tortoisetable ! Both times were fairly recently, and were both situations where I found those particular sulcatas got access to areas where I had put a lot of earthworms to help with soil conditions. They both found and would eat earthworms while most others left them alone or never saw them. So I guess that leads to high protein being the main concern???

I would love to see this discussion continue, especially @Jeffrey Jeffries has any counterbalancing studies / information on oxalates and stone formation???

Thank you both!

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

I'm glad I learned something here-- that oxalate-based uroliths actually leave intact evidence in the stone that doesn't metabolize away before being deposited.

And I'm glad that I was able to bring to the table that uroliths, period, weren't unheard of.

It's a shame I caused the post to go off-topic with an apparently erroneous side note about uroliths.

The initial point was I was openly (and quite cheerfully) wondering about something I doubt there's much research to refer to in tortoises, which is in the title -- wondering if oxalates could be neutralized in the gut by combining them with other specific foods, intentionally, in the same meal so they combine in the gut, as is being discussed anecdotally in humans.
Since a varied diet is already recommended unanimously, combining safe tortoise foods to this end certainly cannot be harmful and is, at least, already practiced throughout one's week, so experimenting with this certainly can't cause any harm, even if it's useless.

This is when I was told that, period, "...oxalate is not a problem with tortoises, and has been taken so far out of context from other species it is now a information dogma that needs your help to overcome."

If oxylates are not an issue at all with tortoises, may I be directed to the scientific research on this? Because it's fantastic news

Thank you.

P.S.
Uroliths, a side note which became the focus of this thread, was not my main concern about oxylates, but rather it was because of my having absorbed so many typical articles on oxalates and calcium absorption, overall health, bone disease, etc., as is the status quo, right or wrong. I'm not new to herpetology and after my 20's I began having healthier-looking reptiles after implementing proper light, exercise & natural behavior with ample space and enrichment opportunities, and learning as much as I could about proper diet, so I thought oxalate consideration made sense.
If my erroneous urolith side note was worthy of so much scientific references, I think it's understandable of me to request evidence to support the larger deal of all of the oxalate concern being bogus in tortoises period. Again, I'm eager to believe it, it's good news if true, and indeed I will help you defeat the so-called dogma if it's true and promote your more advanced gospel of awareness. Thanks again. I welcome, even, referrals to existing tortoiseforum.org threads if I'm asking you to repeat references you've already provided elsewhere.

 

[Markw84]

I'm trying to follow your thoughts, but having trouble. I am not at all being sarcastic, but trying to understand your points. Were you being sarcastic here...

I'm glad I learned something here-- that oxalate-based uroliths actually leave intact evidence in the stone that doesn't metabolize away before being deposited.

Are you actually then implying that an oxalated-based urolith simply has the evidence of oxalates metabolized away? Because in the document referenced above, out of the 4468 uroliths analyzed, there were plenty of examples of stones made of calcium oxalate. Lion, otter, hippopotamus, ferret, etc. but none found in reptiles. Since most of us are extremely aware of and constantly on vigil for the presence of stone formations, it is an extremely interesting and noteworthy aspect of your post. In your original post you state...

Kidney stones are probably due to oxalates, commonly in torts,

That certainly caught my attention. (no worry about kidney vs bladder. - not an issue here.) And you go on to mention calcium and oxalates with "stones" 5 more separate times in your first post, yet say it is off topic to infer you were saying your were not mentioning oxalates to discuss stones?? I know your discussion was relative to reducing/increasing calcium levels and the effect oxalates may have on that, but you always referenced that in relation to formation of stones.

So you've restated your "initial point" as...

It's a shame I caused the post to go off-topic with an apparently erroneous side note about uroliths.

The initial point was I was openly (and quite cheerfully) wondering about something I doubt there's much research to refer to in tortoises, which is in the title -- wondering if oxalates could be neutralized in the gut by combining them with other specific foods, intentionally, in the same meal.

In your original post, I read that neutralizing oxalates was of primary concern because "stones are probably due to oxalates". If we are seeing that oxalates are not binding with calcium and forming calcium oxalate stones in tortoises, and in fact stones in tortoises are not calcium based at all but purine based, then what is the issue with oxalates? My question, and I assume others wonder too, is oxalates really that bad for tortoises, and why? You framed your entire position initially on the formation of stones as the bad effect but offered no other consequence.

In your follow-up post you then brought up the goal to increase bioavailable calcium. That would also be a key and valid concern just a stone prevention would for any tortoise keeper. But does oxalic acid work the same way in tortoise metabolism and actually reduce bioavailability of calcium? Or does proper calcium/phosphor ratios allow for enough bioavailability despite the presence of oxalic acid? Although you feel it a distracting tangent, seeing that oxalates and calcium do not react the same way in tortoise in relation to urolith/stone formation makes that an interesting consideration and completely relevant to this discussion.

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

In no way was I being sarcastic when I said I was glad I learned something in this, possibly multiple things, but namely that you can tell a urolith is oxylate-based by analyzing it. Some questions regarding stones lie hidden, metabolized away, leaving multiple possible answers. When you started using the term oxalate-based, I looked it up, and saw you had taught me such stones are indeed with evidence left intact. I replied favorably on that note which was perfectly in line with the note I'd left off on previously, which was stating I didn't know you could tell from the urolith, but if you can then good point. But yes I had unexpectedly found myself reacting in a confrontational tone which no doubt exasperates your having trouble reading me. I never say the opposite of what I mean with full blown literal sarcasm, but now that you're nitpicking my writing it is again difficult for me to omit some defensive thoughts.

I was quite polite and cheerful, initially even if I was wrong about a passing comment that is relevant but not the focus (more on that below since you're going to argue even that). I virtually never react like I did in my second post in this thread and I uncharacteristically copped my own attitude right, back for better or worse, and even took an unnecessary swat at veterinarians, which I did because :

1 ) The very first line of defense shoved at me aggressively (instead of by matter of fact or correction) was that two veterinarians had just informed this person that in all their days they'd never seen a urolith in a tortoise, at all. If I'm not supposed to take that as a polite paraphrase of, "Uroliths in tortoises period, for any reason, are ridiculously absurd and where did you get such a myth, two vets here say they never saw any uroliths in tortoises ", then I guess my comprehension is shot. So I replied with a kind of, "Well hold on now, even if I'm now learning that they're not caused by oxalates, tortoise uroliths are way more common than you're making out... sorry, I meant bladder and, wow, now you have me reacting to your unwelcoming demeanor".

Then, predictably, instead of acknowledging that I got one wrong and so l had Will (that any uroliths were insignificant in occurrence in torts for any reason), instead of returning to the topic about whether or not oxalates combining with Ca (which is so huge of a topic I didn't feel the need to elaborate or expound much upon MBD etc. etc.) to a tortoises's detriment, I admittedly helped to steer and keep the threat a little off course for my liking.

The title has nothing about stones, and I even stated before I really went off on that tangent it was a side-note,"Not to go on a tangent" I said...
and later (before your last post) I even clarified it was meant to remind us that paradigm shifts between virtually unrelated species can lead to the same revelation between them i.e. pig discovery led to humans discovery basically everyone was wrong about with a fad, "Everybody eat less calcium to prevent stones!" before that.
There was nothing in that side note about oxalates.
So, actually, if you want to get nit-picky, I'm going to stand by the possibility that would be the properly comprehended analogy I was drawing between pig and tortoise -- maybe some of the uroliths being plucked out of all these tortoises (the ones I debunked are ridiculous, while I admitted maybe they're not caused by oxalates) -- maybe just maybe (and I stand by this)
maybe
the same thing is happening in tortoises, and that maybe while they're admitting they're guessing when they hypothesize at LBAH and abroad that the stones are actually due to a) too much protein when they're dehydrated b ) lay off the Ca and D3 ... that maybe if they learned (which most PhDs of any kind usually haven't heard) was was concluded about the pigs (again nothing to do with oxalic acid, making it a tangent or side note, albeit long) which was that in tines of inadequate Ca, after the body reabsorbs its own Ca from tissues back into the blood for emergency use, it sticks in critters kidneys.

But what I really want to find, now, is the much more significant claim shoved down my throat --
(and again, I'm earnest in saying I hope it's true, but you people have me in the mood to request proof as do you) :
Dogma -- supposedly, caring about oxalates at all in tortoises is a useless and annoying dogma, so annoying is it that some are fed up with it with an immediate shoulder-chip ready at all times to pounce on anyone caring about mitigating oxalic acid whatsoever...
that's what I'm so interested in all of the scientific journals, now.
I'm genuinely slap happy if most immediately-internet-visible experts are wrong and torts are special in that they have some special chem in their gut that reacts with Ca before the oxalates can right there in the GI tract (or however they avoid it). That's amazing and it stands to reason something would evolve the ability to do so.
If it's already flogged here then I'll read that thread.
I stopped reading the sticky when it appeared to be about feeding your tort almost nothing but produce because I'm more involved in growing food for them on my land, so it wasn't very interesting to me, but maybe all the references are there I'll go look...

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Markw84 a diet with a high content of oxalis, the plant with the yellow flower, is a different story than oxalates in the varied diet of a prepared diet fed tortoise or one that can free range on a variety of things.

The number of publications that show native diet of the western forms of north American tortoises is a list of what they eat. Some are points in time over the course of a year, some are for drought years versus years with abundant rain, some look at north slop versus south slope, some are a Mojave populations, the Colorado Desert ( a type of desert, not it's location) populations, the Utah populations etc. Then cross referencing those diet plants with other databases of nutrient content we can see these tortoises eat a great deal of high oxalate containing plants.

The same can be done for redfoots and yellowfoots.

Oxalataes also contribute to some extent as utilized nutrients, the tortoise fallacy there is that this study regards human consumption, not tortoises, or pigs, for that matter.

Neutralizing oxalates in the gut would infer it is a direction to go, i.e. oxalates are by default bad or should be neutralized. Why is that a critical consideration (in tortoises)?

I stopped having interest in this thread as I don't get on well well with written or verbal conversations that are as much if not more about how the narrative is going than what the narrative is about.

"shoved down my throat" Yeah that's funny stuff. The number of papers I have posted on TFO about metabolism of oxalates (in non tortoises animals) and the noted studies regarding tortoises is a more complete library than a reference to a web page about tortoises that infers there is no basis to oxalate issues, liths or otherwise.

Markw84, bait the conversation further with your own research (papers supporting one POV or another) and set the bowl of popcorn down.

 

[Markw84]

Markw84, bait the conversation further with your own research (papers supporting one POV or another) and set the bowl of popcorn down.

No sitting back with popcorn to just watch the show here. I had turned off the show!

I was interested because We do hear so much about eliminating dietary oxalic acid and how bad oxalates are, but more and more I don't see why. You, Will are far more of an expert on this than I am, hence my interest. Especially with my recent experience with my sulcatas. I was concerned they were eating so much oxalis, and all I heard was that it was really bad and to be avoided because of its high concentrations of oxalic acid. This thread seemed to directly speak to the binding of calcium with oxalates leaving much less "bioavailable". Because I watched my sulcatas consuming large quantities, and, in particular, by laying female, it was forefront in my mind. She laid her first clutch in March. As a young female she also has been laying eggs with thin shells and many eggs break easily as she lays. I am trying to particularly enhance available calcium for her. The first clutch had several broken shells. Her second clutch was the beginning of May right after the oxalis started taking over in the enclosure. So maybe a week or so of eating oxalis rich grazing. That clutch was even worse despite the Mazuri and cuttlebones. By mid May there was far more oxalis than grass. I though she was done laying eggs and wasn't as attentive to pushing calcium, but was still concerned about the oxalis for overall health. She laid again mid June. So those eggs were forming shells while she was grazing on heavy oxalis content. Her last clutch was the best she's ever laid. Nice thick shells, absolutely no broken eggs!!

So when I saw this thread I was interested. I read your reply as I was starting to write one myself. I was going to ask "Do we really know oxalates are bad?" Your reply sounded fine to me and addressed this, so I waited and was taken aback by the way Mr Jeffries took your post. I know the problem is you cannot hear the tone of a message with the written word alone. So we read in our own tone and it can change the meaning and intent of the message. Maybe I've just read way more of your posts, but here is your original post, and immediately following I will paraphrase showing the way I read your post...

That bit that I made large type. Not a known issue with tortoises. Really! Pigs are not tortoises. Two well regarded Reptile Vets have reported they have looked at many (?) tortoise patients, and not found one calcium accretion. Just saying, the oxalate is not a problem with tortoises, and has been taken so far out of context from other species it is now a information dogma that needs your help to overcome.

Here is the way I read it...

"For clarity, I enlarged the text of the part of your post that to me you used to prove why there is even a need to reduce oxalates. You stated that stones are probably due to oxalates. We are finding, however, that oxalates and calcium are not an issue at all with stones in tortoises. I know it is with many animals, but really, pigs are not the same as tortoises. In fact two of the most respected reptile vets in the world, report that of the many tortoises with stone problems they have examined and heard of, not one had calcium based stones. My position is that oxalates is not a problem at all with tortoises, and this oxalate / oxalic acid concern has been taken way too far out of context in trying to apply findings from entirely different animals, assuming tortoises' metabolism would be the same. It has become such a standard warning and fear to avoid oxalates that it seems accepted as fact, when indeed it is not. my hope would be that someone with apparently your background and the research you've done, could help defeat, not contribute to this misconception."

I guess I thought I could get things back on track when I posted trying to be a specific as possible showing why the whole topic was completely appropriate to his original post, and even follow-up attempts to clarify. I was wrong as apparently that was taken as nit picking or arguing?

The very title is "battling or neutralizing oxalic acid or oxalates". Why would it be inappropriate to ask "why do we need to do that? What is the evidence that Oxalic acid or oxalates are bad, and what is the indications that show it is bad?

If it is "stones" - we see stones are not a calcium or oxalate based issue at all with tortoises.

If it is that oxalates / oxalic acid reduces the bioavailable calcium in the tortoise that could lead to calcium deficiency, then where are we seeing that? I saw the opposite with my tortoise experience just this year. Does that tell us something? Not sure but makes me wonder.


I am still interested, not just sure this is the place it will get discussed.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Humans and farm animals have much more published account than tortoise nutrition. Related but different topic is urea, and all the other things that single exit (cloaca) animals do with protein waste. I have to dig more now to find it, but a Austrian Vet spent the time to look into both what she found and what had been reported in the literature to show that , at least Manouria, eliminate in all the different wastes that occur. Urea, Urates, etc.

That alone was a ragging debate for awhile here on TFO.

Most of my looking at oxalates was primed by my interest in opuntia as a food source. I found many thing counter-intuitive with that focus. In those pads, it would seem the driver for the plant is o use oxalate crystals to make younger leaves less palatable, and 'feel' worse in the mouth of whatever herbivore is eating the pads. One of the 'worker' health issues for people who commercially harvest pads is the abrasion damage on their hands from all the oxalate crystal in very young pads (those that most people eat). Oxalate content peer pad does not increase with pad age/size, so that would tend to back that argument. The available calcium in the pad goes up with size and age as well.

With these thing that I read I kept wondering about species of tortoise that eat opuntia in the native range of opuntia, but also all the areas where it has been introduced (basically everywhere that it will grow). Opuntia as a single example is consumed to very high rates of total diet offered to many species of farm animal without ill effect. Go figure, at least for opuntia.

 

[Jeffrey Jeffries]

I have learned here.
Awesome, Will, it does seem our little buddies surprise us. Someone says, "Oh, never let them eat that" from reading up, but then there's some prime specimen somewhere raised on it. I am lucky to have your experience relayed to me. Wild gopher tortoises take up refuge on my neighbors' and my adjacent properties (never contained of course, being protected ad threatened, so we can but put up signs for now not to "save them" in the pond (yes) as they will drown, and to look for them hiding in your car's shade before you drive if parked nearby. Anyway, there I go digressing -- the point is, we watch them fill up on chick weed and other "moderation only" foods seasonally between availability of listed optimums, and they admittedly thrive. To help prove your own point, even in the spring they care not if cactus pads are older or more mature (higher in supposed oxalic acid), and same with dandelion and purslane (there is no targeting young leaves). I am very happy to be cutting way back on my concern about oxalates, the gophers look healthy, as is congruent with your experience, and my sulcata loves foods high in Ca, loer in P, but "alarmingly" highin oxalic acid. After all, he has healthy-seeming instincts toward cuttlebone, as well.

Thanks Will, and thanks all. I wish I had remained Vulcan or Jedi from the start, as not to hep pollute an otherwise informative thread in spots..
Will has been professional for numerous replies, sooner than I

I just did not know, initially, to ask if we should even worry about mitigating oxalates at all in tortoises. Mitigation of oxalates (not avoidance) just seemed so well established from veterinary-monitored conservatories and, even here, it seemed fundamental until your rebuttal (I haven't read through the site; I just see foods' oxalate index mentioned here almost every time I looked up if a food was edible or poison because so many members clearly endeavor to give foods high in oxalates in moderation). That's why, if we were to suggest a reply as you suggested a more appropriateOP to me, I'd have thought a correction correction reply might have read, "Actually, contrary to popular belief, it'snot even worth worrying about..." considering I was asking if anyone happened to have thought about same-meal neutralization with other foods, not instructing or even stating I practiced it yet (that's why I wasn't expecting debate, and quickly assumed you were correct about all but one of your assertions (or implications). I'm actually extremely glad about this seemingly apt reminder that if the concern mattered any less it wouldn't exist in common, captive herbivorous tortoises.

I will definitely think about my wording, either create separate thread for separate thoughts, or be far more clear about why some all-but unrelated story is only passive support and not direct support. If I re-read the my OP quickly and pretend it's for a magazine, it's a mess.

Warning, hehe, major tangent that only helps prove Mark's assertion I can be difficult to follow it I'm careless:

I can see how my post either requires bumpy, slow reading or even frustrating re-reading to see why I'm bringing up different things for varying, if not interrelated in my own spectrum autistic mind (this is not a figure of speech nor it is sarcastic, it has been diagnosed by people dragging me repeatedly to doctors I refused to see vehemently, as I do not want to be mistaken for trying to lean on or collect disability compensation).I NEVER admit this professionally nor socially, never, but I really wanted to post regularly here and become a member and all cards are shown, in this whim. I am becoming an authorized agent for FWC, I work hard, and likely had a chip on my shoulder about brown nosing to people at jobs, just because I'm new. If I feel they're being unkind after I've produced 12% more than the guy I replaced, at age 47 I've become open and frank about it. But fighting a match with a torch is me going against my nature when I know better, and I can imagine how you feel when you see what you feel is dogma being upped an ante.
I am a very meek and eager to please person in real life, and you caught me on a sensitive week. I'm being begged to return to a job I thought was over for me (I guess things started to go to pot after I was gone for two weeks and tones are very different upon my return, which I find re-affirming.).

I promise I do not have to have the last word (I will not reply any further to this thread, but will read any further posts made).
I will take care to promote efficient, uplifting and/or informative threads.
I was really looking forward to some posts just regarding the joy of husbandry, pictures, and helping encourage positive practices.
I will be very clear when something is very fringe, unknown, potentially erroneous (versus "probably" based on human anatomy and physiology undergrad ed.), etc.
Thanks, and I hope to get onto and remain on a better foot. With you, too, Mark.I know you have a lot to offer and I welcome your valuable expertise (genuinely).
Looking forward to future threads
Sincerely, Jeff