Beak trimming in perpetuity?

Mrs.Jennifer

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I tried to find information that was previously posted on this question, but didn’t have much luck finding any (could TOTALLY be operator error…).

I have a male Russian that I rescued 14 years ago. He was estimated to be 4 years old (I know—could have been any age). He seems to be wild caught, but with a surprisingly great carapace. However, he has always had beak issues. He has had a beak trim at least once every 18 months since I’ve had him. He had a bit of a “drift” in his lower jaw when I first got him, so the first few years were just filing things back incrementally to correct alignment.

So to my question, is this something they “grow out of?” i.e. correct over time? Or is it just inevitable because of early exposure and/or genetics?

I don’t mind taking him for beak trims, but I was curious…
 

Tom

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I tried to find information that was previously posted on this question, but didn’t have much luck finding any (could TOTALLY be operator error…).

I have a male Russian that I rescued 14 years ago. He was estimated to be 4 years old (I know—could have been any age). He seems to be wild caught, but with a surprisingly great carapace. However, he has always had beak issues. He has had a beak trim at least once every 18 months since I’ve had him. He had a bit of a “drift” in his lower jaw when I first got him, so the first few years were just filing things back incrementally to correct alignment.

So to my question, is this something they “grow out of?” i.e. correct over time? Or is it just inevitable because of early exposure and/or genetics?

I don’t mind taking him for beak trims, but I was curious…
Based on raising 100s of tortoises to adulthood and never once having any beak issue, and also rehabbing tortoises that came to me with beak issues, I have to say this is usually a diet or husbandry issue. I've had two dozen Russians. Hatchlings and adults. Hatchings that grew into adults. I had an adult sulcata given to me with an overgrown beak. I figured I would let the poor girl settle in to her new home for a few weeks before the trauma and restraint of beak trimming. Within a month of being in my care her beak had sorted itself out and looked like any other sulcata in my enclosure, and I never had to do anything to it. The grazing, cactus pads, hay, and everything else simply fixed the problem.

Now I know you know what you are doing with tortoise care because you've been here and active for so long, so your case is intriguing to me. We usually see this with tortoises housed poorly, in small enclosures, exclusively indoors, and fed a lot of grocery store greens. They usually aren't supplemented correctly, if at all, and have have poor UV sources, if any at all. I know your tortoise is inside most of the year due to your climate, but I'm pretty sure you have the right lights, diet items, and supplements, right? No 40 gallon pet store tanks in your house, right?
 

Levi the Leopard

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I agree with Tom that it's husbandry related.

My leopard tortoise never needed beak trims in CA where he grazed outdoors all day, every day. Here in OR he maintains his beak just fine during the warm months when he grazes but in the cooler months when he's fed more grocery greens, it starts to grow a bit.
It'll trim down the next warm season but sometimes I just give it a little clip with the cuticle cutters.

All that to say it shouldn't be a regular, on going thing and it's not that they "grow out of it" rather they can use it properly.

Let's see if we can help you ID the cause, so you can correct it and solve the issue :) :tort:
 

Maggie3fan

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But...I kinda disagree...Mary Knobbins is a rescue, she came with a bottom jar that jutted out...I pay a small fortune for a Vet to trim her beak every 6 months. She only eats what is in her yard to graze, and hay. I guess I do pick masses amounts of leafs and flowers for her tho...here she is still loaded from her beak trim...the bottom as you can see juts out, so any new growth will be wrong...Never in the 4 years she's been here has her beak ever been right. So to me...it's not my husbandry but it is a deformed jaw. It can't even be trimmed back correctly.IMG_20210701_163352.jpg
before a trim

100_4559.JPG
it breaks off crooked
100_4164.JPG
and this is normal for her...100_5058.JPG
 

Tom

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But...I kinda disagree...Mary Knobbins is a rescue, she came with a bottom jar that jutted out...I pay a small fortune for a Vet to trim her beak every 6 months. She only eats what is in her yard to graze, and hay. I guess I do pick masses amounts of leafs and flowers for her tho...here she is still loaded from her beak trim...the bottom as you can see juts out, so any new growth will be wrong...Never in the 4 years she's been here has her beak ever been right. So to me...it's not my husbandry but it is a deformed jaw. It can't even be trimmed back correctly.View attachment 353666
before a trim

View attachment 353668
it breaks off crooked
View attachment 353669
and this is normal for her...View attachment 353670
This is from early development Maggie. She might have been this way right out of the egg, or this might have happened during the poor care she received as a growing baby or juvenile when all the pyramiding was happening. In most cases, correcting the husbandry will correct the beak problems, but in some cases, like Mary, it is not fixable long term, even with excellent care.

One of my ground hatched leopard tortoises this year came up with that type of underbite. I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it, but it is able to eat and survive, so I let it ride.
 

Mrs.Jennifer

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Based on raising 100s of tortoises to adulthood and never once having any beak issue, and also rehabbing tortoises that came to me with beak issues, I have to say this is usually a diet or husbandry issue. I've had two dozen Russians. Hatchlings and adults. Hatchings that grew into adults. I had an adult sulcata given to me with an overgrown beak. I figured I would let the poor girl settle in to her new home for a few weeks before the trauma and restraint of beak trimming. Within a month of being in my care her beak had sorted itself out and looked like any other sulcata in my enclosure, and I never had to do anything to it. The grazing, cactus pads, hay, and everything else simply fixed the problem.

Now I know you know what you are doing with tortoise care because you've been here and active for so long, so your case is intriguing to me. We usually see this with tortoises housed poorly, in small enclosures, exclusively indoors, and fed a lot of grocery store greens. They usually aren't supplemented correctly, if at all, and have have poor UV sources, if any at all. I know your tortoise is inside most of the year due to your climate, but I'm pretty sure you have the right lights, diet items, and supplements, right? No 40 gallon pet store tanks in your house, right?
Thanks for the insight. Yes, I am now (for the winter) housing him in a PVC enclosure with fine grade orchid bark, Arcadia 12% T5 HO hanging from chains for lowering and raising (based on my SolarMeter 6.5), CHE on a Pymeter digital controller for heat, 65 watt incandescent flood bulb for basking and 2 Govees. LED strip lights make up the rest of the ambient light. I pour water in the substrate and humidity hangs around 70-75% in the winter months. The footprint is slightly smaller than the 4x8 rule, but I added a "second story" loft level with a ramp. I feed him in the loft, so he has to truck up and down the ramp several times a day to eat, so he gets extra movement besides trucking around the lower level. He sometimes gets big leaves to tear into, and sometimes everything finely chopped in the terracotta saucer. He has chosen under the ramp to be his humid hide (despite my beautifully crafted one which was a waste). It is also replete with hanging plants and a small patch of wheat grass.

HOWEVER, his current set up didn't happen until January of 2021. Prior to that I had the open top, coconut shells, CFL, basking bulb for heat and ran a room humidifier and space heater all winter trying to keep the temps up (I hear you all cringing...). I listened to "experts." For many years he's had an outdoor garden that he spent summer days roaming. So for almost 50% of the year he would have perfect conditions, but the winters were less than ideal.

Because of the thoughtful discussion that everyone has provided here, I went back and looked at my records and realized that the last beak trim he had was several months after moving to his new enclosure. It is now about 20 months since then, and he doesn't need a beak trim. I didn't realize how long it has been, so maybe this is a problem that isn't a problem anymore? I guess I was just anticipating it because of the past history...
 
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