Best Breeder Burmese Star

[Shaif]

Another (of many to come, I suspect) question for you all:

I'm collecting all the care sheets that I can find. Some call for night heat and an Tom's 80/80 rule. Some reputable sources say that no night heat is needed and that temps can get fairly low at night. Could the night-time heat be one of the factors contributing to the impressive growth discussed above? Do most of you heat at night? My enclosures are indoors. Winter temps at night can get down to 65, but never lower.

Also, just to share a chuckle, I told my husband he is buying me a Star for Christmas. He thought is was jewelry.

 

[skottip]

I will take some tonight when they are getting their bath.

 

[skottip]

I will take some tonight when they are getting their bath.

 

[skottip]

This was tonight. Some holdbacks.

 

[Tom]

Another (of many to come, I suspect) question for you all:

I'm collecting all the care sheets that I can find. Some call for night heat and an Tom's 80/80 rule. Some reputable sources say that no night heat is needed and that temps can get fairly low at night. Could the night-time heat be one of the factors contributing to the impressive growth discussed above? Do most of you heat at night? My enclosures are indoors. Winter temps at night can get down to 65, but never lower.

Also, just to share a chuckle, I told my husband he is buying me a Star for Christmas. He thought is was jewelry.

When you keep them dry, which you will have to do to let temps drop at night, they pyramid. I bought some that were kept this way. Its a bummer.

Also, night time temp drops are for temperate species. This is a tropical species. They might be able to survive cooler night temps, but so can sulcatas and leopards. Doesn't make it good for them.

 

[no one]

Oh, how I wish I could get my hands on one of those beautiful Burmese babies!!

 

[jatin sharma]

Wow, that is €423,44 (euro)!! And a Burmese Star, €846,88 (euro). Prices are high. I pay €200,- for an Indian Star hatchling from a breeder. That is $236,16.

In india it is available at 50$ [emoji12]

 

[Markw84]

This was tonight. Some holdbacks.

@skottip I believe it was last year's hatchlings, you posted a picture of an axanthic looking hatchling. Are one of those pictured that one? How did it turn out? Did normal coloring return in a month or so??

 

[Shaif]

This was tonight. Some holdbacks.

Absolutely stunning! They don’t look scared either. You are a lucky guy.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Shaif]

When you keep them dry, which you will have to do to let temps drop at night, they pyramid. I bought some that were kept this way. Its a bummer.

Also, night time temp drops are for temperate species. This is a tropical species. They might be able to survive cooler night temps, but so can sulcatas and leopards. Doesn't make it good for them.

That makes sense. I have a CHE and thermostat. Will probably need another pair for the 8 x3 ft enclosure. Will be fun to tweak everything till it’s perfect. I love this stuff.

Thank you.

 

[Tom]

Will be fun to tweak everything till it’s perfect. I love this stuff.

Me too!!!

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Tom,

Very impressed by what your Burms look like at this age.

What was your husbandry practice for the first 2-3 years?

I just bought a TSM and TSF from Chris Leone at GST and am seeing they love the higher temps than planned and wondered about hydration.

I've been working with torts for 46 years (last 17 with Russian's and Redfoot's) and decided to add Burms for their state in the wild and how well their native environment mimics North Texas (Dallas Metro) where we live now.

Thanks

Ernie

They are a fantastic species. Love them. Personable, hardy, easy to feed and care for…

I got mine from John at Coastal, KenS, Skottip and the Behler Center. Very very happy with all of them.

Here are a few things I've learned about them that might help:

• When you ship babies, they stop growing, or slow down a lot, for months. The first six months I had mine, I was terrified that something was wrong and they were going to die. Remember who is telling you this though. I'm used to baby sulcata growth rates. So when my stars only gained a gram every week or two, I was in a state of high anxiety for a long time. In talking to other keepers, I now know this is common. Eventually they all start growing and thriving at a more "normal" rate. Mine all reached mature size in about 4 years and I just got my second clutch of eggs last night. Fingers crossed for some fertility out of my first years moms.
• The Burmese star breeders who are all fantastic human beings who I love, admire and respect, do NOT have the temp sex thing worked out yet. No offense fellas, just reporting what I've seen! I bought babies that were all supposed to be temp sexed for female and I ended up with exactly 50% from each individual seller being female. So for example, I bought 4 from Mr. KenS and two were female and two male. The four from Skottip were two males and two females. Two bought from John were one male and one female. I've heard of other buyers having similar experiences.
• They like grass. I offer fresh grass to all my tortoises, but some seem to like it more than others. My sulcatas and SA leopards love the grass. Russians eat around it. CDTs will eat some, but they seem to prefer other stuff first. If I mix grass into my stars pile of food, they devour it all up. When I let them roam in their grassy pens in my yard, I frequently see them grazing on the grass when they have other things available to eat.
• I haven't yet come across anyone who doesn't think babies should be soaked every day. This is sometimes argued with other species. Everyone seems to agree: Soak baby platynota every day.
• Some people used to keep them on the dry side. Just like so many other species, it doesn't work well and results in slow growth and pyramiding. This species can be added to the list that thrive in tropical monsoon conditions.
• My stars are most active and eat most in the afternoon/evening. Many days the food pile would just sit there hardly touched, and then be devoured at 4-5pm with not a scrap left. I found this odd, as none of my other species do this, but there it is. Heard the same story from other keepers. Many summer nights, I go out to collect them and put them away and I'll find 3-4 of them walking around in the dark. NONE of my other tortoise species do this at all. My other species are bedded down for the night and asleep when the sun starts going down.
• They like it hot. In summer, ambient in their closed chambers would climb into the mid 90s. I would still see them basking under the heat lamps. Crazy! They do have enough sense to stay out of the sun on hot summer afternoons, but they like heat.

Here is Pink2, one of the ones from Skottip, laying her very first clutch of 8 eggs on 10-1-2017:
View attachment 221202


And here is my largest female depositing her first 7 eggs last night. She came from John at Coastal. She dug about 8 test holes last month but never laid, so I was very relieved to see this. She weighs almost 4000g now:
View attachment 221203

I'm told they usually lay in winter, so with 15 eggs in hand in Fall, I'm pretty happy. Hoping for a good season!

Take the plunge. You will love them. I can't think of any downside to this species. They stay a manageable size, they are gorgeous, they eat anything and everything, they are adaptable to different climates and diets, they are friendly and curious with their people, but not violently aggressive toward each other… I suppose if you only like giant 50 pound plus species, then this one isn't for you, but for everyone else, I don't know what more a person could ask for.

I've seen hatchlings for sale from $1000 each up to $1400 each.

Ask us lots of questions! I love talking about this species and I love hearing other people talk about them too.

 

[Tom]

Tom,

Very impressed by what your Burms look like at this age.

What was your husbandry practice for the first 2-3 years?

I just bought a TSM and TSF from Chris Leone at GST and am seeing they love the higher temps than planned and wondered about hydration.

I've been working with torts for 46 years (last 17 with Russian's and Redfoot's) and decided to add Burms for their state in the wild and how well their native environment mimics North Texas (Dallas Metro) where we live now.

Thanks

Ernie

Hi Ernie! I shared this info with you in your first thread here. Check out post #3: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-burm-star-owner.161075/#post-1532130

To summarize, I raise them in monsoon-like conditions, warm/hot, humid and damp substrate, and soak them every day until they reach about 100 grams, at which point I'll start skipping a day now and then. As a general rule, I give all my baby tortoises of all species about an hour of sunshine per inch of tortoise, whenever weather permits, which is most of the year here in Sunny SoCal. The politics here are awful, but the weather sure is nice. I've done several side-by-side experiments with sulcata clutch mates and found that too much outdoor time hampers their growth and makes them pyramid when compared to siblings on the same routine and same food raised mostly indoors in closed humid chambers that simulate monsoon conditions. Probably similar to how you raise your RFs, but brighter, warmer and with a basking area. I've observed similar results in other more humid climates too. Too much outdoor time is not as good for babies as keeping them mostly indoors in stable, warm, humid conditions.

Please feel free to ask for details. Happy to share.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Tom,

Thanks, good info. I've only had mine 6 weeks and they seem to really like the heat (will bask for a long time under or very near the 60 watt heat emitter I use to warm their long plastic shoe box with a 9 inch over head 10.0 UVB/UVA tube. More the Zovickian model.

Keeping it as damp as I'd like to tough as we live in Dallas and ambient humidity in the house is 35-50% most of the year.

I'm using moist sphagnum moss as the humid area (hide) for them and can keep it between 75-90% humid.

I'm just wondering and this is why I've reached out if the daily soaks and a small humid area is enough given the actual environment these guys come from is dry with only 1-2 inches of rain a month for 4-6 months out of the year.

That being said, the ambient humidity will certainly not be 10-20% given their native area in Myanmar is close to the Indian Ocean coast.

 

[KevinGG]

Guys, is Chris L a good source? I can preorder for a February clutch.
He’s in my geographical area—so hopefully less trauma shipping or I could even make the drive.

Thanks again!
S

Yes. Garden State Tortoise is always a great source.

 

[KevinGG]

Too late. I already laughed…

Chris L. is a great source. I would definitely make the drive vs. shipping if you have the choice.

If it doesn't work out with Chris, my first clutches should hatch in late Jan or early Feb. It would be a longer drive to get to me though. Much longer…

Oh wow. I want some. Breaks for TFO friends? Just kidding

 

[Markw84]

Tom,

Thanks, good info. I've only had mine 6 weeks and they seem to really like the heat (will bask for a long time under or very near the 60 watt heat emitter I use to warm their long plastic shoe box with a 9 inch over head 10.0 UVB/UVA tube. More the Zovickian model.

Keeping it as damp as I'd like to tough as we live in Dallas and ambient humidity in the house is 35-50% most of the year.

I'm using moist sphagnum moss as the humid area (hide) for them and can keep it between 75-90% humid.

I'm just wondering and this is why I've reached out if the daily soaks and a small humid area is enough given the actual environment these guys come from is dry with only 1-2 inches of rain a month for 4-6 months out of the year.

That being said, the ambient humidity will certainly not be 10-20% given their native area in Myanmar is close to the Indian Ocean coast.

Ernie

The 4-6 "dry" months is the cold winter months where they are not growing as much. But "dry" is not referring to humidity, but rainfall. The average humidity in the Burmese stars natural range stays between 60% and 90% winter vs summer. And that is the meteorological reading at 2 meters above ground, not at ground level under bushes. Plus, the dew point ranges from the low 60°s to mid 70°s. That means you pretty much have dew forming throughout most of the year over night.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Mark,

Thanks!

That's what I was looking for and assuming.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Mark or Tom,

The female started exhibiting some odd behavior the last few days and I took her to our qualified Herp vet yesterday and she's clean - x-rayed no internal issues no respiratory issues.

Went from listless with eyes closed to a very active the 45 minute ride to the vet, the time at the vet and the 45 ride home. Was more normal last night.No respiratory issues.

Out the last 30-45 minutes, eye not opening, soaked (didn't drink), eyes still closed, moved around and now resting under the far umbrella of the heat emitter.

My speculation is too dry (even with 85-90% humidity in the sphagnum moss) and the eyes have been affected and she's had some mucus discharge from her mouth (did it yesterday as well), and seems constipated.

I have the 10.0 bulb 10 inches above tort level (which shouldn't be an issue) but am flummoxed as to what to do.

All my years of tort work never had anything like this before with adults or dozens of hatchlings.

Any thoughts?

Ernie

 

[Tom]

Keeping it as damp as I'd like to tough as we live in Dallas and ambient humidity in the house is 35-50% most of the year.

I'm using moist sphagnum moss as the humid area (hide) for them and can keep it between 75-90% humid.

I'm just wondering and this is why I've reached out if the daily soaks and a small humid area is enough given the actual environment these guys come from is dry with only 1-2 inches of rain a month for 4-6 months out of the year.

That being said, the ambient humidity will certainly not be 10-20% given their native area in Myanmar is close to the Indian Ocean coast.

We've debated this subject MANY times here over the last few years. Its worth repeating the debated points with someone like yourself that has so many years of experience with many species and all ages of tortoises. I wish you'd been around back then, but let me see if I can summarize my main points on this issue:

• Mark already did his usual excellent job of pointing out that weather data is collected 2 meters off the ground in open areas, while our tortoises are nestled down in areas with heavy cover, lots of plants and much higher humidity. Especially babies.
• A member who spent a lot of time in India recently pointed out that the "dry" season over there enjoys typical humidity from 60-90% and less rainfall than the "wet" season. In my experience, this applies to all tropical species. 50% humidity is MUCH drier than what they would encounter in the wild, even two meters off the ground in open areas. Sulcatas are a good example. Who cares what the topside numbers are. They spend 95% of their lives underground in warm humid burrows.
• Using sulcatas as an example again: Every book on sulcatas mentions the arid climate and the "dry" season. What about the other season? Why no mention of that in the sulcata books? Most of these books state that humidity and damp substrate will cause shell rot and respiratory infections. These assertions are totally and completely false. The other part of the year that these authors have all ignored is the rainy season. AKA the "wet" or "monsoon" season. Conditions are hot, wet, rainy, swampy, marshy, and very humid during this time of year over there. Guess when babies hatch? Its actually the first rain of the season that prompts them to dig out of their nests and come topside. Critics of my "wet routine" methods frequently ask: "Who soaks them every day in nature?", with a very condescending tone. I answer: "Mother Nature. They hatch in the rainy season. There are puddles and marshes every where and lot and lots of rainfall!", with no small amount of smugness in my tone.
• We talk, debate, and surmise a whole lot about what happens in the wild. I think this is good discussion, interesting information, and in some cases, it can be helpful. However, trying to simulate what we think happens in the wild has been killing and disfiguring CB baby tortoises for decades. We had the wrong ideas based on incorrect assumptions about these "dry" or "rainy" seasons, and even when we do have the right idea, simulating the correct environmental parameters in our decidedly temperate climate is exceedingly difficult. In my opinion, far too much weight is given to our educated guesses about life in the wild, and our primary source of evidence for what works, and what does not work, in our North American captive environments, is largely ignored. People like you, me, Mark and so many others on this site have been keeping tortoises for decades. Who cares about what happens in the wild. Don't you know what works and doesn't work in your enclosures with your species? For years I read the books, talked to vets, breeders and "experts", and all of their advice failed me. I finally started doing my own experiments and observing results from all over this country and the world, and with input, insight and ideas from many sources, I figured out what works and what doesn't. Monsoon season conditions in a closed chamber work. It works for sulcatas, all types of leopards, all types and species of stars, radiata, Galapagos tortoises, Aldabras, pancakes, and probably any other tropical species. Open topped enclosures in a normal North American living room don't work. Open tops, and the resulting dry conditions they create, deliver pyramiding, overly-slow growth, kidney damage in some cases, eye issues in some cases, and a general failure to thrive in comparison to clutch mates raised in a closed chamber. Its good to think about what our given species might encounter in the wild, but let's not ignore the facts that are right in front of our eyes every single day.

Here is a thread I started many years ago. It might give you some insight into where I'm coming from. When I joined this forum, I came in talking about this very subject and I was met with some resistance from some of the more experienced members. This was to be expected, but the arguing was getting us nowhere, so I issued a challenge. I was going to raise a bunch of my own hatchlings in the "wrong" conditions and post regular updates here on the forum, and I invited them to do the same with their own babies. In other words, no more arguing. Put up, or shut up. If I was wrong I would be publicly humiliated as my methods failed and my babies either got sick or died. If I was right, well, what were they going to say then, after they'd been arguing with me all that time. I already knew I was right, but they didn't. They were sticking to the old methodology that had failed for so many decades, and defending it vehemently. Well, I'm still here, and a bunch of them left. The methods I illustrated here are now used literally all over the world and people everywhere get the same excellent results that I get. Over time, more puzzle pieces were gathered, and we all began to realize that the methods I and been advocating because they worked, were actually working because they simulated what our baby tortoises actually encounter in the wild. Anyway, here is that thread: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
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