Best UVB bulb for my baby sulcata

[Tom]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your input, but I disagree. Adjusting the height of a MVB changes the amount of UV light reaching the substrate. The florescent tubes are at a constant distance from the animal and they run the length of the enclosure. Unlike ceramic heating elements, MVBs can't be hooked up to a thermostat to regulate the substrate temperature. I think the danger of overheating or dehydrating a hatchling tortoise of any species using an MVB is far greater than any perceived lack of UVB reaching the animal.

I keep my tubes about 11" off the substrate and change them out after 6 months. I really think you should try this with your next batch of hatchlings. Whomever pays your electric bills will thank you.

This is all fine and good, but you didn't address or acknowledge that they don't work. Do you have personal experience with dozens or hundreds of individuals of the species I mentioned being kept long term under those flourescent bulbs? I do. As I said, I've had to rehab dozens of them. If they come to me in the winter, during a cold spell, and I can't get them in the sun, I rehab them and stop the MBD using a MVB. I adjust the height of every one of them to get the desired temp. They make enough UV to stop MBD at any height. The flourescent tubes usually do not. I have had to rehab many reptiles from people who used flourescents. I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.

 

[RichardS]

I have pulled countless reptiles out from under those types of flourescent UV in various states of MBD.

I have never pulled a reptile out from under a MVB with any degree of MBD.

I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.

Hi Tom. Your argument contains a post hoc logical fallacy. The conclusion of your two posts is that the florescent tubes cause MBD.

I don’t think its fair to assume MBD is so simple. I also think the number of contributing factors go beyond the UVB output of your bulb. You failed to mention any of the other husbandry conditions of the “hundreds” of reptiles you have saved from fluorescent tubes.

I like to deal with facts. I know there are UVB output tests published on the internet. Let’s try to find them.

 

[Tom]

I have pulled countless reptiles out from under those types of flourescent UV in various states of MBD.

I have never pulled a reptile out from under a MVB with any degree of MBD.

I have never seen MBD in any animal of any species kept under a MVB at any height.

Hi Tom. Your argument contains a post hoc logical fallacy. The conclusion of your two posts is that the florescent tubes cause MBD.

I don’t think its fair to assume MBD is so simple. I also think the number of contributing factors go beyond the UVB output of your bulb. You failed to mention any of the other husbandry conditions of the “hundreds” of reptiles you have saved from fluorescent tubes.

I like to deal with facts. I know there are UVB output tests published on the internet. Let’s try to find them.

I drew no such conclusion. My conclusion is that the flourescents do not produce enough UV to prevent MBD and that the MVBs do. I've seen the packages and the manufacturers websites with claims of what their bulbs produce. I've seen lots of studies measuring UV output and D3 blood content in Iguanas and tortoises. I've seen UV output charts on the internet too. All of these things become irrelevant when you are standing in front of an otherwise well cared for animal who has MBD with a flourescent UV bulb or two right above their head. The only cases where they didn't have a problem was if they were getting them out for regular sunshine. Then the flourescent tubes worked like magic.

I was the reptile guy in more than one pet shop for 8 years before starting my current career. I used to sell the flourescent set-ups to people all the time. I'd tell them to get their animal out for sunshine too, but many chose not to. The ones that did put their reptiles in the sun had healthy animals, the ones who didn't would call up and ask why their animal was getting fat and not eating. Then they'd call back a week or two later and ask why their animal was "twitching" all the time. I was privy to the experience of hundreds of my customers.

You can disregard what I'm telling you and keep your animals however you like. If they are getting some sunshine occasionally, as they should, you won't have a problem with your set-up. I feel it is important for new people, who are asking for help, to get as much info as possible, so that they can make the best decisions possible about the care of their animals. In my mind the whole point of a forum like this is to gain the wisdom and experience of others without the people or animals having to suffer through the same mistakes they made to gain that wisdom and experience. You are welcome to learn what I have learned the hard way, but, if possible, I'd like to help some others not have to learn it the hard way.

 

[RichardS]

I found a cool site that measures UVB output and there is no question that spot lamp MVB produce a greater amount of UVB light at < 12" http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

At those distances I'd worry we'd set the substrate on fire. Plus, unless the tortoise is directly under the beam they drop off is so significant, they are actually less effective than the tubes. Check out the results for yourself:

MVB:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/spreadchartcombo.htm

Fluorescent:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttuberesults.htm
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/fluorescenttubereflectortests.htm

Here is the summary: two identical Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 24" tube emitted 65uW/cm2 at 12". It would not be a stretch to imagine 10.0 bulbs with longer (and higher wattage) would produce even better results.

The Zoo Med Powersun 100 watt flood emitted 40uW/cm2 at 12"
T-Rex Active UV Heat 100 watt emitted 200uW/cm2 at 12" and 100uW/cm2 at 18"

 

[Kristina]

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, you guys are BOTH making really great points, but I am afraid that you are going confuse poor abbs....

New thread? Just an idea

 

[Tom]

I hate to be the stick in the mud here, you guys are BOTH making really great points, but I am afraid that you are going confuse poor abbs....

New thread? Just an idea

Now THAT is a good point. Thanks.

 

[RichardS]

I feel it is important for new people, who are asking for help, to get as much info as possible, so that they can make the best decisions possible about the care of their animals. In my mind the whole point of a forum like this is to gain the wisdom and experience of others without the people or animals having to suffer through the same mistakes they made to gain that wisdom and experience.

I couldn't agree more, which is exactly why I weighed in.

You are welcome to learn what I have learned the hard way, but, if possible, I'd like to help some others not have to learn it the hard way.

I really don’t know what this means. I think you are under the assumption that I am a newbie. Perhaps you should introduce fluorescent bulbs into your sulcata experiment? Did you ever consider the dehydrating effect of a basking bulb on a hatchling, which may contribute to pyramiding? My guess is no.

 

[dragnikla]

These are definitely really great points Tom and Richard, and it is important for people to be educated. But right now the question of the fluorescent tubes is irrelevent because abbs already has the reptisun 10, the tort isn't going outside on a regular basis due to weather, the substrate is dry and the tort is still sick. If abbs can't get the MVB then we will see what happens with the moist substrate, and the fluorescent tubes, hopefully the tort will get better regardless of the experiences people have had with fluorescent tubes. When abbs gets the larger enclosure the heat will become more of a problem, so hopefully if there is an MVB by then, that will be accounted for as well as the UVB. We all need to wait to hear back from abbs about the adjustments, and the torts condition. Saving money is great, but not at the expense of our loved ones.

 

[abbs]

i changed my substate to some topsoil. My little tort is doing much better, running around and eating. I had her outside for an hr the otherday (weather was great) and the day before that for like 45 min. Shes always on the run, grazing on grass as she keeps trucking around my yard.