Billy's story

[TammyJ]

This first part is a check to see if I can post a new thread at all, because when I tried on Friday last, I had written quite a long post, and when I pressed "Enter" to post it, it just disappeared forever.
This was after choosing "Preview". I did not see any button saying "post new thread" or "post thread here".

 

[TammyJ]

This first part is a check to see if I can post a new thread at all, because when I tried on Friday last, I had written quite a long post, and when I pressed "Enter" to post it, it just disappeared forever.
This was after choosing "Preview". I did not see any button saying "post new thread" or "post thread here".

OK then. Now I know how to do it! So here goes.
Twenty six years ago in Montego Bay, Jamaica, my daughter found a turtle wandering by the roadside and picked him up and brought him to me in Kingston. She knew I had another turtle (An RES).
Up to this day and time, I have never been able to identify Billy or find anyone who could. All those years ago I took him to the zoo here, and was told that the only time one like him had ever been found or known to exist, was some years before, in the interior of the island. They could not say what had become of that one. There were no pictures of that other turtle either, for me to compare. So I kept him, and when I moved to Coopers Hill from Kingston six months ago, of course all my animals came too.
To my great distress, and because of my own fault, Billy escaped and was gone for about four months, then one morning I heard a call from a neighbour that someone had found a turtle and was outside my gate with it.
Joy turned to puzzlement and disappointment when I saw right away that the turtle they found was NOT Billy! I mean, how likely is that? Anyway I took the one that had been found (an RES!) and soon was able to return it to its owner who had a pair of them in a pond in his garden not far from my house.
I have never seen Billy again and will now always wonder what he was, because he is certainly not a Jamaican slider - I have one of those and they are a lot bigger and quite distinguishable.

Billy seemed to be quite old when I got him that long time ago, judging from the dark patches on his plastron, and he was about 8 inches long with a dark, flattish shell and speckled skin. Here are a few pics (I hope I can post them here.)

 

[TammyJ]

Maybe I should have posted this in "water turtles" because that is what he obviously is.

 

[Rue]

I'm very sorry to hear about Billy! I hope someone knows what species he is.

 

[wellington]

@tortadise may be able to help here. Sad about Billy. Hopefully some day he will be found and returned.

 

[Yvonne G]

He looks like some sort of pond turtle. Very similar to California's western pond turtle. Let's ask @Markw84 and @Anthony P

 

[TammyJ]

Thanks all of you for your interest! I would love to finally have an idea of what he is, although my feeling is that he is in fact, the last living (?) one of his kind, a now extinct Jamaican turtle that is in fact over 100 years old. A hitherto unknown and undiscovered species.
I am going to post some pictures of my Jamaican slider, Andromeda so you can see what they look like. They are also called Jamaican Pond Turtles.

 

[TammyJ]

A few more pics....

 

[Rue]

Oh dear, now that would be even sadder...if he was the last one...

 

[cdmay]

Billy is almost certainly a Trachemys of some sort. But I've never seen anything quite like him. Very unusual.
The person who would know is Paul Vander Schow who resides on the Turtle Forum (another good site). Paul V. is the expert on Trachemys in the Caribbean.
I sure hope you find him!

 

[Markw84]

Don't think it is a Trachemys at all. Never seen or heard of one without stripes on the neck and limbs. Also all Trachemys have serrated rear marginals.

Looks like a European Pond turtle to me. Emys orbicularis. I know it came from Jamaica, but must have been released / introduced. The only "native turtle in Jamaica is the Jamaican slider Trachemys terrapen and even that is probably a species introduced from the Bahamas long ago. Billy definitely does not look like a Jamaican slider!

There's not too many turtles with spots on the neck and limbs and no stripes. Pretty sure it has to be a European Pond.

 

[Yvonne G]

I do believe you're right:

http://www.froglife.org/amphibians-and-reptiles/european-pond-turtle/

 

[TammyJ]

LOL! All this discussion and agree/disagree is what I get everywhere I introduce Billy!

European Pond Turtle??? Most unlikely, but not impossible! I prefer to think "previously undiscovered species of Caribbean/Jamaican turtle - possibly a true dinosaur, the Last of his Kind, etc."....!!
He certainly behaved kind of like a crocodile, and woe betide any thirsty pigeon who ventured to try to drink from his pond when he was hungry. I have witnessed my RES and Mr. Billy grab, drown and partially devour a pigeon on more than one grisly occasion...but that is another story!
I sorely, sorely wish I got him back.
Billy where are you??? Sob. I will check Paul Vander Schow on the Turtle Forum. Hope I don't get lost there....!

 

[tglazie]

I'm by no means an expert on Caribbean sliders, but none of those animals look anything like a European Pond turtle. The cranial features are nothing like any E. orbicularis I've ever seen. They definitely look more new world to me. Most notable is the snout, which keeps to a straight line with the cranium, unlike that of most E. obicularis, which tend to curve downward. I haven't seen many Jamaican sliders, but maybe this one is an expression of a particular mutation. Is there extensive study concerning the taxonomy and species variation on the island? Perhaps he was the result of an unlikely coupling of a native Jamaican slider and a feral American redear. That is pretty crazy, though.

T.G.

 

[tglazie]

Apologies, I spoke with hyperbole earlier. Saying they look nothing like E. orbicularis is idiotic. I can see the resemblance, certainly, given the pattern. And there is such a ridiculous amount of variation among E. orbicularis that I've often wondered why it is considered a single species, the same reason I think "Greek" tortoises should have their classification completely overhauled, so who knows. Maybe there's a type of Emys out there with this animal's exact profile. Clearly, I'm not an expert on those either. I'd be interested what Chris would have to say on this subject. But otherwise, I think what we are looking at is either a genetically anomalous member of the Jamaican slider clan, or an entirely new type (that may, unfortunately, be extinct).

T.G.

 

[tglazie]

Also, Mark, does the serrated rear marginals rule apply to all members of the Trachemys genus? I've heard it referred to as a distinguishing feature when it comes to North American trachs, but I was never positive on whether or not the feature spanned multiple continents.

T.G.

 

[enchilada]

notice the long nails? thats a typical feature of male Chrysemys and Trachemys

 

[enchilada]

have you ever go field herping near where you found it in Montego Bay, Jamaica? (although now looks like a well developed urban area)

 

[mark1]

do you think the turtle at 4:45 to 5:01 might be like billy ? i recall seeing a pic of a turtle called a cat island slider somewhere that looked similiar to your billy , when i googled cat island slider , i was surprised they looked like north american sliders , but this video was there .....

 

[Markw84]

OK. I'm changing my mind. I'm now going with a melanistic Jamaican Slider. Really amazing variation with any visible striping totally gone, but that is possible and I've seen the mottling of the shell patterns in some carribean sliders that have turned melanistic. This guy shows that on his plastron plus the pattern mostly left to dark seams on the plastron is pretty typical of melanistic sliders. Biggest thing is what appears to be an enlarged inguinal scute. The more upward pointed snout as tglazie points out is also saying slider. And although the front claws aren't as long as I'd expect of an old melanistic male, they are long enough to look slider as well - enchilada. And I've only done a limited amount of herping in Jamaica, and that was northern Jamaica.

And...TammyJ - The sliders of the carribean are even more aggressive than red ears, so your story of the attack on the pigeon would make perfect sense.

Here's the only picture I could find of a melanistic Jamaican Slider from the southern part of Jamaica.