Black vs "Melanistic" Brazilian .carbonaria hatchlings

[Redfoot NERD]

This female has produced hatchlings from Northern males as recent as last year. She produced with little consistency ( from the Northern males ) although she has always been consistent with her laying cycles since early '06. [ meaning she had low hatch rate ]

"Most" of her hatchlings from as recent as '00 had both Northern and Brazilian characteristics - the Brazilian characteristics most likely from her. DUH!

Although I [ and those breeders that I communicate with most ] don't take to "speculation".. we figure that she carried viable sperm for those TWO YEARS - read on...

In 8/08 she was separated from the cursed Northern males and was only with the only potential mature male.

He has been with me as the "Alpha" male since he was slight 7" SCL in '05 -

As you may notice he has questionable? "genes" going on with the carapace abnormalities!

A few examples of the "hybrid" hatchlings -

And from as recent as late '09 - early '10 eggs -

"Did he sneak in there some on the above hatchling"?

Not what I would actually call a "runt' [ common-sized in my camp ]

Initially very little PALE red/pink with a lot of black on them.


***** PHASE TWO *****

The above pic is from 8/16/00. The next dozen eggs from that and two other clutches produced "0" hatchlings! We wondered [ as least I did ] if the male was shooting blanks!

THEN the first Nov. '10 egg hatched -

And the next 3 have had black/pale-yellow colors.. and undeveloped plastrons and/or enlarged yolk-sacs -

To my knowledge this male has contributed little if any prior to this years hatchlings [ Aug. '10 - Dec. '10 eggs ]. So there is not the possibilty of having prior "normal" colors that went bad because of environment, diet, timing, etc. because there were none.

Again IF I were to "speculate".. it would be that she contributes the colors and he contributes the black - no that's not talking out of both sides of my mouth!

Only time will tell.....

NERD

 

[cdmay]

NERD, most of the 'black' cherries I've hatched have looked more or less like this one of yours...

One or two have been a good bit darker with less color on the carapace that look a little more like--but not quite as black as your last photos show. The oversized yolksac is exactly the same as I've had here with my dark ones.
There could be a genetic connection somehow that manifests itself in both the very dark color AND the overall weaker (meaning large yolksac and often smaller size) demeanor.
But here is the big question: Are these neonates actually melanistic in the real sense, or is the lack of color a result of something else?
If they are actually the result of a genetic trait it would be neat to eventually produce a solid black redfoot.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

If they are actually the result of a genetic trait it would be neat to eventually produce a solid black redfoot.

Carl there are no less than 3 of us [ 2 others have on this forum ] that are thinking the same thing!

The main difference is that my ONLY mature male/female has NEVER EVER created any RED/ORANGE/YELLOW/SALMON colored hatchlings.. only what I am calling "black-cherry" which means intense deep red-black colors. Carl are any of your dark ones mixed in with others [ " normal" colors ] in any given clutch or are you having a run on those dark ones out of the same clutch?

As far as the colors being the last thing to develop before hatching.. I always thought 'premie' meant "premature".. 6 month incubation is not premature for a redfoot tortoise. They're all in the same incubator with the Northern eggs that are hatching in 115 - 125 days. 84-86F temps.

EVERYTHING is the same outside and inside.. etc., etc., etc. as the Northerns except they do not live together in the same enclosure!

 

[onarock]

Dont know alot about Redfoots and I only have 2 for a little over a year now, but great thread, very interesting. I have a question for ya. Do any of you know if there are any other redfoot breeders that incubate at the same temps that have hatchlings that incubated for as long as Terry's black cherry's?

 

[Fernando]

Terry's black cherry's ....haha

 

[Hustler]

Terry's black cherry's ....haha TM or Trade Marked lol

 

[Kristina]

I think I may have seen this one before... hmmmmm

Growing up to be a pretty baby!

 

[EricIvins]

If they are actually the result of a genetic trait it would be neat to eventually produce a solid black redfoot.

Carl there are no less than 3 of us [ 2 others have on this forum ] that are thinking the same thing!

The main difference is that my ONLY mature male/female has NEVER EVER created any RED/ORANGE/YELLOW/SALMON colored hatchlings.. only what I am calling "black-cherry" which means intense deep red-black colors. Carl are any of your dark ones mixed in with others [ " normal" colors ] in any given clutch or are you having a run on those dark ones out of the same clutch?

As far as the colors being the last thing to develop before hatching.. I always thought 'premie' meant "premature".. 6 month incubation is not premature for a redfoot tortoise. They're all in the same incubator with the Northern eggs that are hatching in 115 - 125 days. 84-86F temps.

EVERYTHING is the same outside and inside.. etc., etc., etc. as the Northerns except they do not live together in the same enclosure!

Premie does mean pre-mature..........I've had Redfoot Eggs take close to a year to hatch......Common? No......I've also had half a clutch hatch, and the remaing take up to another month and a half to complete the process......I don't see how you cannot deny those hatchlings are hatching prematurely........The Yolk sack bigger than the Tortoise tells you everything you need to know........

Pigment/color has always been off on any premature Reptile I've seen or produced.......

 

[cdmay]

NERD...if that male has only produced the dark hatchlings and has never produced a 'normal' colored cherryhead neonate than I would lean toward there being a genetic cause involved in your case.
The ones that I have produced has come from two females that otherwise produce normal hatchlings.
I seem to remember that a couple of these did take a a rather long time to hatch but EricIvins is right---if a neonate emerges from an egg with an over-sized yolk sac, under developed color and so forth, it is still hatching prematurely regardless of the time frame. In other words, it wasn't ready to hatch yet.
I really need to go back and dig through my photos....

 

[Redfoot NERD]

NERD...if that male has only produced the dark hatchlings and has never produced a 'normal' colored cherryhead neonate than I would lean toward there being a genetic cause involved in your case.
The ones that I have produced has come from two females that otherwise produce normal hatchlings.
I seem to remember that a couple of these did take a a rather long time to hatch but EricIvins is right---if a neonate emerges from an egg with an over-sized yolk sac, under developed color and so forth, it is still hatching prematurely regardless of the time frame. In other words, it wasn't ready to hatch yet.
I really need to go back and dig through my photos....

Carl from all indications the hatchling I got from you in '05 is probly the only other possible male in the mix. There is another one but I doubt he is big/old enough now!

Obviously any animal that is born/hatched with undeveloped anything is "premature" - but you and I know a 6 month incubation term is quite uncommon for a .carbonaria! Almost rare. Another case of "exceptions and extremes" taken to issue.

Once again these .carbonaria type tortoises from "Brazil" are unique in many ways.. downright weird to me anyway !

Anybody want these weirdos???

---

I think I may have seen this one before... hmmmmm

Growing up to be a pretty baby!

G R E A T ! looking rearing Kristina! Warm humidity condensation anywhere in the mix? Do I see a spot of marbling? How old is he again? He's one of if not the first "black-cherry"!

Congrats..............

 

[cdmay]

Well, I went back through my photos and I only have photos of this little one...

...that I have posted in the past. He hatched with a very oversized yolk sac but was quite spunky regardless. The last time I saw him (I think I gave him away for free at the Expo to someone who was buying another hatchling) he was clearly on his way to being a nearly solid black animal. I am sure that as an adult what little color he had as a hatchling will have long disappeared.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Well, I went back through my photos and I only have photos of this little one...

...that I have posted in the past. He hatched with a very oversized yolk sac but was quite spunky regardless. The last time I saw him (I think I gave him away for free at the Expo to someone who was buying another hatchling) he was clearly on his way to being a nearly solid black animal. I am sure that as an adult what little color he had as a hatchling will have long disappeared.

Carl I remember that little one of course.

Have you found that the "Brazilian" .carbonaria tend to fade or become 'melanistic' at a relatively younger age than do their "Northern" cousins.. if you will? Seems to me I've seen more 'drab' looking "Brazilians" than "Northerns"!

We can only imagine what these "black" ones will look like in 20 years.. well you other guys anyway!

Did you hear about the famous old retired Olympic medal winner who was going to the Senior Citizen home to give a speech and encourage the "old-timers"?

When he got there the hall he entered had only one little old lady in a wheelchair present.. so he said to her - "Good morning.. do you know who I am"? She said - "No... but if you go down the hall and to the right you'll see the receptionist.... she can probly tell you"!

Must have been a "Senior moment".....

 

[EricIvins]

I think it's more of the fact that we have a mental picture of what a Cherryhead should look like........I've seen quite a few LTC Brazilians, and some of the recent Paraguayan Cherryheads, and 85% of them were fairly drab.......Some had some decent red, others were just about black on both the head and legs.......They all had the typical rudolph nose......The Cherryheads you see maturing now are from captive pairings, which are going to be skewed towards having more red........

 

[cdmay]

I think it's more of the fact that we have a mental picture of what a Cherryhead should look like........I've seen quite a few LTC Brazilians, and some of the recent Paraguayan Cherryheads, and 85% of them were fairly drab.......Some had some decent red, others were just about black on both the head and legs.......They all had the typical rudolph nose......The Cherryheads you see maturing now are from captive pairings, which are going to be skewed towards having more red........

Huh, I've been saying this for years but nobody listens to me. Sure glad to hear someone else saying it though.
Although, 'Paraguayan Cherryheads'? You mean the really big Chaco animals that are like Bolivians?

 

[EricIvins]

I think it's more of the fact that we have a mental picture of what a Cherryhead should look like........I've seen quite a few LTC Brazilians, and some of the recent Paraguayan Cherryheads, and 85% of them were fairly drab.......Some had some decent red, others were just about black on both the head and legs.......They all had the typical rudolph nose......The Cherryheads you see maturing now are from captive pairings, which are going to be skewed towards having more red........

Huh, I've been saying this for years but nobody listens to me. Sure glad to hear someone else saying it though.
Although, 'Paraguayan Cherryheads'? You mean the really big Chaco animals that are like Bolivians?

Paraguayan Cherryheads aren't really that different from Brazilians.....Same size, same color, only minor shape differences........Some people that have Cherryhead groups have Paraguayan animals and don't even know.......

 

[Kristina]

G R E A T ! looking rearing Kristina! Warm humidity condensation anywhere in the mix? Do I see a spot of marbling? How old is he again? He's one of if not the first "black-cherry"!

Congrats..............

Absolutely She is kept at 85* F and humidity never falls below 80%

No marbling yet, and actually I would prefer if she didn't... although, it would be quite pretty.

She is almost a year old now, 4" SCL.