Blackfish the documentary on Sea World tonight at 6 and 9

EricIvins

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CLMoss said:
Eric.... We are talking about whales.

Whales, Tortoises, Rats, whatever.....A life is a life right? One shouldn't be held in higher regard than the other as far as I know?
 

Yvonne G

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I just love Will's take on the subject. Thank you, Will.
 

ascott

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If it IS about the animal, I would implore you to return your Tortoises to the wild.

Eric, in a hot minute I would love to see the torts here back in their wild land....in a hot minute. I would much rather see the CDTs be allowed to truck around in the desert--much moreso than a captive yard...but as already happened, someone would impose their wants for this tortoise to be theirs and catch and remove them from their desert....leaving them essentially unable to be returned to land they should have...

However, this is about the thread topic...I simply shared here a parallel moment in life between my son and myself in relation to awareness of a situation we both find wrong....

I too believe some creatures conform better to a captive situation than others....Whales are simply one of those that, to me, are a poor creature to be subjected to the "tank" conditions......also, Sea Turtles are a sad bunch to watch swim in a circle .....if/when you are at sea world please take note; there is a big, flashy lavish tank in what use to be the manatee tank (they were quietly shipped to a new tank in Florida to make way for the turtles)it has bright cartoon colors, fun viewing glass shapes placed at just the planned angle so you can get real close up--to feel like you are as close as possible....absolutely a lovely tank---then make your way over to the old tank inside the building next to the circue de something show--go down into the dark building, move to the back of the building and you will come to a tank--filled almost to the rim with the left over sea turtles that did not get picked to be in the new flashy tank---they have bite marks, scrapes and fuzzy stuff on their shells....the tank is a concrete brown finish and that is it....no bright fun cartoon colors, no fun shaped windows....just a dark box tank with a plain wall of viewing window....so of course I need to find someone who knows what this is about , so I meet up with a trainer who advises me that those are the "overflow" turtles....that after their max was met in the new tank and their max was met in the "back" this was the only place to put them....those are bite marks and injuries from circling turtle too many in a small/inadequate space....why would you possibly need so many turtle? Profit is the word that comes to mind...

Tom is correct in that politics and very planned actions are the method in obtaining pulling on the heart strings, because politicians think the general public are idiots at their disposal, a creature to use and exploit for their own benefit and profit....however Tom, this should not be the quick dismissive "reason" for this topic...not to be tossed out with the dish water as just another political topic, this is in itself a grand cover....when the show is over and the people go home the trainers leave...there, they sit in all of their grand captivity... nothing to do, nothing to bond with, nothing to do but wait for the light of day just to be put through the same ole circus tricks....this is not fair....their memory is there, they have memory of what was--it simply is not a fair situation, it is not right.
 

wellington

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Ascott, your first post gave me chills, your second one, well. So sad they would treat "left over" living things so poorly. I do wonder why they need so many. With the whales, if they had only two, they could give them more space. Run one or two shows a day, and if one happens to not be able to perform, so be it, that show doesn't go on. Better yet, forget the shows and just let people view them acting however it is they would want to act. I'm not against the zoos or aquariums, etc, they do a lot of good too. What I am against is the way they make the animals perform and the over crowding. We don't need to see 5 or 10 turtles or whales. One or two is enough for seeing, enjoying and being educated about.
 

sibi

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Will, you talk about how media exploits one heart on controversial subjects such as this one; yet, you have just made their arguments for them. Tell me if that didn't come from the heart.
Will said:
I did not see the film, dont really need to. The free clip says it all. The producers have an agenda, using the whales as much as the seaworld people.

In short open plains/migrating animals do not "work out" in captivity.

No matter if it is an albatross, pelagic fish, migrating hoofstock, or open water large marine mammals, none of these animals do well in captivity.

But the emoting delivered by shows like this, IMO, is worse than keeping the whale in the tank. They are screwing with you through your heart.

When one human exploits another through their heart, they are bad, their rational argument is weak.

I am pretty sure a leopard gecko does not miss the Pakistani desert, nor a goldfish missing open water. I'm also pretty sure that even the WC pancakes I have, are OK with their current setup.

Some types of animals based on how they make their living are OK in captivity, some are not.

You sure don't need scientists to sort this out, ascott's kid did based on simple direct observation. Its not an all this or that proposition.

I have worked in a few different animals in captivity industries. Its OK, to have some animals in captivity, not others.

Large ocean going animals with complex social lives are not OK, in captivity, butterfly fish are OK. The animals communicate this divide just fine.

But hype TV, well, I think those folks need a small free rent room, with narrow vertical windows. Marketing people who run live animal exhibitions, zoos and aquaria, who have never worn fecel smelling shoes, ought to be right next door.

An unprofessional joke among zoo people had been, "the two most dangerous people in a zoo are architects and veterinarians". That was before the "Disney" affect (yes Affect, not Effect) , now both those mindsets have been replaced by the wild animal experience marketers.

If you want to see whales, go on a boat into the ocean, not sit on your bottom and watch them do stupid human tricks. The boat is also less expensive.

Just my five cents worth. Two cents doesn't support an opinion anymore.

Will
 

Candy

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Thanks to those of you that watched the documentary and to those of you who made very positive comments on this very important subject matter. I too loved Angela's sons story and I also loved what Will said. It looks like the showing of this documentary on CNN reached a lot of people and did very well at educating them on orca's in captivity. I started researching this subject after Dawn Brancheau was killed. I get updates everyday from Orca Network and am able to see beautiful pictures and wonderful updates on the orca's in Puget Sound. It is so wonderful to see them in the wild. It's such a different life for them. One day I hope to visit there just like the ex-trainers did in the movie. Here is the website if anyone would like to see for themselves. http://www.orcanetwork.org/Main/ If you weren't able to see the movie it will be for sale in November on Amazon. Here is the link.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EL6ACOI/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

I have my copy that I purchased from the UK and am loaning it out to as many people as I can. I love to see peoples reaction AFTER they watch the documentary. Some of them are shocked and others already knew some of it. I'm adding a link that tells how the showing did last night. I think an Oscar is in her future. :)


http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...-conversation-surrounding-cnnfilms-blackfish/

Thank you again and keep passing the word and someday Tilikum and Lolita (at the Miami Sea Aquarium) will once again be free.
 

Candy

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Sorry this is a day late, but I was out all day yesterday and didn't know they were going to do an encore of Blackfish this weekend. Anyway, for those who didn't have a chance to see it here is the information. It's on the 26th and 27th and it got top ratings. Please let me know what you think. :) Don't forget to tape it if you don't have the time tonight. ;)

Thanks so much for tuning in. Eyes are opening!

Watch an encore of Blackfish on CNN Saturday, October 26 at 7p ET/6pm JA time. and Sunday, October 27 at 9p ET.

I just found the link to an online viewing if you don't have cable. Here are two links.

http://www.thegreatplanet.com/blackfish/

http://afdah.com/watch-movies/blackfish-2013/
 

sibi

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Tom, I get what you're saying, and I totally agree with you about manipulation of people's emotions for a given purpose. Playing politics with the lives of people or animals is something I've abhorred for years. Manipulating people's emotions is extremely effective; but, the proof of most of their allegations concerning these animals were documented and taped. On numerous occasions, SeaWorld had to backtrack and confirm what they previously denied about the death of a trainer. One can manipulate how they use the tapes, but, you can't change the facts that were revealed and that we all know to be true about the tight housing of these whales.

The argument that these colossal animals are forced to live in tight quarters cannot be denied. Even if SeaWorld expanded these quarters and that information was conveniently left out of the documentary, the added space would still be inadequate. As tortoise lovers, we would be outraged if a tortoise lived in such tight quarters that they are unable to stretch out their limbs. Why would we not be equally outraged with the small quarters forced upon these whales?

Politics and manipulation is one thing, but the living conditions of these giants is something totally different. Often facts are manipulated to serve the purposes of those revealing it, but the fundamental fact that these animals live in inhumane conditions cannot be denied. That's been my argument for years now, and until SeaWorld changes how they house these animals, it will continue to be my beef with SeaWorld.

If someone put on a documentary trying to convince people of the opposite position, I would be hard pressed to be convinced that these whales are not better off in the wild and and open oceans.

It's not the same with other wild animals. Preservation and conservation is a good thing especially for animals that are in danger of extinction. Many of us own captive species and do provide a better life to them than if they lived in the wild. I total agree with you there, but, it's not the same for corporations whose sole interest in capturing these animals is the bottom line. Leaping to the idea that someone may use the same argument for all exotic pet lovers is like comparing apples to oranges. There are just a handful of corporations that invest in Orca whales for entertainment, but there are millions of people who own exotic animals as pets. Logistically, it would be a nightmare to remove pet animals and release them in the wild. Isn't gonna happen...not now, not ever. Therefore, I don't fear that possibility, and never will.
 

DeanS

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Ironic that Josh would allow such a topic in the new WORLD OF DISNEY tortoise forum. So much controversy! So many lies. But I digress. I've always found Sea World's propaganda deplorable. I saw Tilikum's behavior long before there was a Tilikum! Marineland had an identical bull named Orky! Same fin...same attitude! If I remember correctly, SW purchased him from Marineland...and he died shortly thereafter! These big guys don't belong in captivity...NEVER did! As a former elephant handler, I feel the same about them. No intelligent species should be held in captivity. You lock up a human...does he rehabilitate? Not usually (and I really mean not at all)! Most elephants held in captivity are the product of culling...you don't think they remember what happened to their mothers? Revenge is sweet! Orcas...actually all cetacea...in captivity are frustrated...and claustrophobic! Maybe there's a degree of predation memory triggered...tell me a trainer belly-sliding across a platform is stirring ideas of a seal trapped on an ice flow. None of these trainers were eaten. Their injuries were inflicted by a physically superior animal...nothing more! And take into consideration that most human bones break at 10 lbs/si. I've known several of SW's trainers and they are among the best anywhere. It's never about their incompetence...because they're not! It's ALWAYS about SW's greed and the neccesity to cover-up these incidents! Whatever the filmmaker's intentions are/were...I will only say this. I would NEVER contribute to any of these 501(C)3s...because they always have an ulterior motive...but I do believe all cetacea and elephants need to be out of the hands of zoos, aquariums and circuses!
 

Levi the Leopard

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I haven't been able to see this documentary in its entirety. I only caught some of the middle. I was able to see A Whale of A Tale on YouTube. The story of Keiko. I hope to finally see Blackfish, too.
 

Candy

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Keiko, or Free Willy as most of you know him as, was an awesome orca as well. I loved that movie. He was able to finally enjoy freedom. :) Here's a background on him if anyone is interested. It lets you know his story. http://keiko.com/history.html

The other night on Nexflix I was able to watch Luna the killer whale that captured the hearts of many people. Luna somehow was separated from her pod but they never found out how. Luna spent five years in Nootka Sound, off the west coast of Vancouver Island. It was beautiful to watch her swim free but still interact with people. You can watch the trailer here if you'd like. http://www.thewhalemovie.com/

I loved watching Luna and how she pulled peoples heartstrings but it was still sad to think of her alone without her family. I was so happy to see her free and not in captivity.
 

thatrebecca

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I watched Blackfish tonight and came on here cause I knew there would be interesting and thoughtful comments about it.

As a pure piece of journalistic research, I found it a very persuasive argument against keeping orcas in captivity. And certainly against keeping them in the manner they are kept at SeaWorld.

I understand why some people are wary about the film -- oh here come the hysterical, finger-wagging animal rights folks with their propaganda, ready to regulate and take our rights away.

But this isn't a simple, melodramatically edited PETA video.

It's a well researched study of the impact on these animals and the humans who work with them.

Training orcas to swim in circles all day long is nothing like training dogs to sit and fetch a newspaper.

Ultimately the question the movie poses is one I suspect we all think about often: is what we're doing the best for the animals?

I know with my tortoises I have asked myself that question often, and with the guidance of folks here on TFO, I have made changes to improve their lives: bigger enclosures, healthier food, more suitable temps, etc.

To dismiss Blackfish without watching it is to miss out on a chance to learn and be moved.

I'd recommend it to anyone.
 

nate.mann

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some comments here had me upset, but i will refrain from mentioning who to prevent an argument. anyways, very interesting thread. good read.
 

DeanS

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How many of you have seen Sea World's PATHETIC commercials regarding orcas! Absolutely disgusting! ALL LIES!

 

Candy

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I tried watching one, but they are all lies. I contacted their company to let them know that they should have put the money they spent on them in sea pens to release the orcas into. I also let them know that if this is the best that their new CEO can do they wasted money there also. Just keep on spreading the word and these innocent animals will be released one day. I truly believe that.
 
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