Breeder: "Tortoises Home" in Las Vegas

[KarenSoCal]

3 to 4000 is a scam price too if it's for an adult. You are looking at a price of 7 thousand for a teen and upwards of 20 thousand or more for a full grown adult.

Oh, I was quoting the forum's discount price. ? ???

 

[William Lee Kohler]

Yes, has to be a scam

And absolutely NO ONE has any legal Angonokas to sell in the USA. Now that would be a PRIZE to have!

 

[TeamZissou]

He cannot prepare any documents. The USFWS has to issue a permit to you for you to be able to buy Radiated Tortoises from a resident of another state. The application fee is $200 for the permit, and the waiting time is close to a year to get one. Additionally, USFWS has not been issuing any permits to beginners or to any people without professional zoo affiliations for that matter for several years now. There is no way this fellow could get a permit for himself, let alone for you.

For how much was he offering you the Tortoises? I am very curious to know.

If you really want to buy Radiated Tortoises, there are several breeders in AZ who could sell you the species legally.

Hi Bill,

Can you fill us in on what actually gets recorded or reported as part of a sale of a Radiated?

I understand the part about mutual CBW permits being needed for inter-state sale, and people list their permit numbers on classifieds/websites etc. But for an in-state sale, it's possible for neither party to have a CBW permit, correct? In that case, what role does the ESA law play aside from allowing such a sale without a permit? I see sellers requesting that buyers show a drivers license or something to prove their residence, but does this get recorded in some way, or reported to the USFWS? I know that CBW holders need to report the number of specimens of the specifically permitted species on reapplication, but do they turn in a list of who they sold to or anything like that?

What happens if the buyer then gives the tortoise as a gift to someone in another state? Is that reported in any way, or does the recipient of the gift need any documentation to show that they are the new legal owner of the tortoise?

 

[zovick]

Hi Bill,

Can you fill us in on what actually gets recorded or reported as part of a sale of a Radiated?

I understand the part about mutual CBW permits being needed for inter-state sale, and people list their permit numbers on classifieds/websites etc. But for an in-state sale, it's possible for neither party to have a CBW permit, correct? In that case, what role does the ESA law play aside from allowing such a sale without a permit? I see sellers requesting that buyers show a drivers license or something to prove their residence, but does this get recorded in some way, or reported to the USFWS? I know that CBW holders need to report the number of specimens of the specifically permitted species on reapplication, but do they turn in a list of who they sold to or anything like that?

What happens if the buyer then gives the tortoise as a gift to someone in another state? Is that reported in any way, or does the recipient of the gift need any documentation to show that they are the new legal owner of the tortoise?

Here is an explanation of the situation which I believe should answer your questions. All persons holding USFWS CBW Permits must file an annual report with the USFWS. On that report, they must list all happenings for the prior calendar year involving the species in question. This includes all births, deaths, trades, gifts, breeding loans, donations, etc. In other words, the disposition of every animal which the person had in their possession during that year must be reported. Permit holders are also required to file a Year End Inventory of their animals, listing each one in their possession (and its sex, if known) as of 31 December of the given year. For example, one person might report having 7.9.22 Astrochelys radiata, meaning 7 males, 9 females, and 22 unsexed Radiated Tortoises as of 31 December of that year.

Now believe it or not, people in the USFWS permit office look at the Year end Inventories from one year to the next, then look at the Annual Reports to see whether each animal's disposition on the Report for that year will result in the correct number being listed on the Year End Inventory from one year to the next. If the numbers don't jive, the permit holder will soon be getting a call or a letter from USFWS asking for an explanation of the discrepancy.

This is where the current system breaks down (which USFWS doesn't seem to be able to understand). People who receive these animals as gifts or buy them within their states of residence may or may not have CBW Permits. If these recipients don't have CBW Permits, the ability of USFWS to track that animal is lost once it leaves the hands of the permit holder who passed it on to the non-permit holder. There is no mandate for a non-permitted person to record or report anything (unless a state permit is required). Therefore, by refusing virtually all new CBW Permit applications, USFWS is gradually going to lose its ability to keep up with the trade in endangered species because sellers will only be able to sell within their own states to people who have no obligation to report anything or to keep any records, as I said above.

Hope that explanation is clear enough. If not, let me know.

Bill Z

 

[TeamZissou]

Here is an explanation of the situation which I believe should answer your questions. All persons holding USFWS CBW Permits must file an annual report with the USFWS. On that report, they must list all happenings for the prior calendar year involving the species in question. This includes all births, deaths, trades, gifts, breeding loans, donations, etc. In other words, the disposition of every animal which the person had in their possession during that year must be reported. Permit holders are also required to file a Year End Inventory of their animals, listing each one in their possession (and its sex, if known) as of 31 December of the given year. For example, one person might report having 7.9.22 Astrochelys radiata, meaning 7 males, 9 females, and 22 unsexed Radiated Tortoises as of 31 December of that year.

Now believe it or not, people in the USFWS permit office look at the Year end Inventories from one year to the next, then look at the Annual Reports to see whether each animal's disposition on the Report for that year will result in the correct number being listed on the Year End Inventory from one year to the next. If the numbers don't jive, the permit holder will soon be getting a call or a letter from USFWS asking for an explanation of the discrepancy.

This is where the current system breaks down (which USFWS doesn't seem to be able to understand). People who receive these animals as gifts or buy them with their states of residence may or may not have CBW Permits. If these recipients don't have CBW Permits, the ability of USFWS to track that animal is lost once it leaves the hands of the permit holder who passed it on to the non-permit holder. There is no mandate for a non-permitted person to record or report anything (unless a state permit is required). Therefore, by refusing virtually all new CBW Permit applications, USFWS is gradually going to lose its ability to keep up with the trade in endangered species because sellers will only be able to sell within their own states to people who have no obligation to report anything or to keep any records, as I said above.

Hope that explanation is clear enough. If not, let me know.

Bill Z

Thanks Bill. This is great. I don't remember seeing the info in your last paragraph explained anywhere.

Brett S.

 

[enchilada]

the picture was stolen from some tortoise owner , who probably from Malaysia or Indonesia .
the backgroud grass are pretty common in south east asia but probably doesnt exit in US, especially in a desert like Las Vegas

 

[VegasJeff]

I'm in Vegas and I'm not familiar with any local breeders so if you have any info send my way. (But to be fair, I'm not actively shopping for a tortoise either).

Site looks like a potential scam, All the photos look they are shot in a different location which is a big red flag to me.

Usually, in pet stores and shows out here, I only see baby sulcatas and an occassional herman or russian tortoise. Not many tortoises at reptile shows as the most popular reptile there seems to be snakes.

 

[Tolis]

Finally someone with reasonable prices lol I thought the internet police was strong in the USA how are people like him allowed to stay online? He advertises ploughshares on his homepage I doubt he wasn't ever reported till now