Breeding Loan consideration dillema, or how to acquire without the $$

Stoneman

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I live in a state without anyone currently producing babies. A major radiata vendor informed me that someone in my state has some juvenile high yellows he doesn't want to take care of. Three endoscoped females and one male. All are about five or six years old. He basically wants to keep them because he wants to make a lot of money once they start producing.

I don't have enough to offer a fair amount up front. I could give him about half of what they are worth, and pay him the rest over time. But I doubt he will want to do that.

My biggest concern with a breeding loan is that I will care for the tortoises for five years, and after one clutch he sees the dollar signs and wants them back, having found a new way to care for them, and me being stuck with nothing. Or, what if he is currently sincere about it, but seven years down the line, he has grown impatient about them not having produced, and disagrees with one small aspect of my practice and psychologically he balloons that in his mind, then executes his ownership rights and recalls them, leaving me and all my hard work with nothing? What if the first clutch has not hatched? Same issue as before, the silent investor suddenly becomes overly critical and wants them returned.

I would rather offer him a percentage of the offspring, if they produce before I can pay out on our agreed upon terms. Hell, after five years I could agree to give him 100% of clutch profits if I hadn't paid him off by then.

Maybe a breeding loan but I don't think it would be worth my time unless I got 50% of at least 10 clutches. That way I would not get robbed of my time investment.

Does anyone have any ideas of a successful way that I could secure my investment of time, housing, food, and any vet bills, while also securing his trust and his financial security? I could have all his torts tested for the bad diseases, for a high price. But, they were all CB and have not had a ton of exposure so I am not very concerned about them.

Oh, and here is another complication to the story. I have been looking for this species in my state for years. I spoke with him for the first time today. I am moving out of state in two weeks. I don't have a permit and he failed to renew his. I do know someone in the other state who has a permit and also babies I can buy. So, it is not my only option. But, it is definitely something with potential.

How can I provide trust that I will not just take his torts and run? Tracking device? I know microchipping is something we could tag onto the bill. Are there forms we could fill out, beyond just general binding contract law to ensure either he or I fulfills our terms of the bargain?

Has anyone ever actually had an experience of a breeding loan both parties were happy about? If so please share. Any advice or history of experience would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about the novel, I hope it was easy to follow and that I avoided bad writing, but written from my phone at 5:00 AM on a sleepless night.
 

Maro2Bear

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After a pretty quick read of your issue, problem and concern, I do see a whole lot of issues. Seems like there are and will be too many external imponderable issues/factors out of your control to make this work. Better get a lawyer and a very firm/formal agreement set in place. Best of luck....
 
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ALDABRAMAN

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@8james8 @deadheadvet @Sterant @Tom @ALDABRAMAN You guys came to mind so I thought I would name drop and see if maybe you guys had some particular experience or insight. Any and all wisdom or recommendations are welcome from anyone, thanks to anyone really who has the patience to read through all of this.

~ We have had several females on breeding loan many years ago, never any success. There are many challenges, liability and legal issues to consider and address. Many i know successfully engage in breeding loans without issues.
 

Sterant

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Breeding loans can work out very nicely for a number of reasons - I almost always have other peoples animals at my place, and I have some of mine out to others. The thing that makes it successful is knowing the other guy very well - well enough to have complete trust in him/her.

Unless you have a particular love for the specific tortoises this guy has, why not just get some in your new state after you move?

If you really want these particular tortoises, there are contractual ways to protect you from your concerns. Things like permanent breeding loans, or a loan in which he cannot recall the animals, etc... But this gets complicated.

I would be happy to talk you through some ideas, but its a bit more than I have the patience to write ;-)

PM me here if you want and we can setup a time to talk.

Dan
 

Stoneman

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The guy seems kind of busy, I am sure he is probably trying to exhaust other options. I messaged him that the only way I would be interested would be to either pay x amount now, and y over time, or x now and pay him back in money from y offspring.

I said I would sign whatever to ensure security in investment as well as transparency. But that I have no interest in raising the animals unless I retain 100% of ownership of the animals.

He said he would be happy to try to iron out some details but that he has something going on and doesn't have much time to talk...

He seems transparent and fair, but we will see. At least now he knows that I am not trying to get my hands on them and disappear. But my demands are pretty firm so I would be surprised if he follows through with and wants me to take them. But, we will see.
 

Ray--Opo

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Welcome if its about not having enough money to buy the tort out right. Then you need to think about if you have enough money to care for the tort. To care for the correctly takes money. Maybe I read it wrong but if money is a issue maybe a tort is not the proper pet for you.
 

Tom

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From reading your post it seems you are well aware of all the potential pitfalls around you. I would have warned you of that sort of stuff, but it seems you are already aware.

I'm involved with two breeding loans right now and both are with friends and people I trust completely. My strategy on this has been to consider the worst case scenario. If I am willing and able to deal with the worst case scenario, if that should happen, then I will engage in the loan.

I also don't do this for money. I love tortoises and I'm passionate about keeping them and reproducing them so others can share the joy that they bring me. The money is nice and helps to subsidize my addiction, but I don't do it for the money. I like to work with other people who feel the same way.

@Sterant is a great one to take advice from on this subject. That would be a conversation worth having just because he is a great guy to talk tortoises with. I am lucky to know him.
 

Sterant

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From reading your post it seems you are well aware of all the potential pitfalls around you. I would have warned you of that sort of stuff, but it seems you are already aware.

I'm involved with two breeding loans right now and both are with friends and people I trust completely. My strategy on this has been to consider the worst case scenario. If I am willing and able to deal with the worst case scenario, if that should happen, then I will engage in the loan.

I also don't do this for money. I love tortoises and I'm passionate about keeping them and reproducing them so others can share the joy that they bring me. The money is nice and helps to subsidize my addiction, but I don't do it for the money. I like to work with other people who feel the same way.

@Sterant is a great one to take advice from on this subject. That would be a conversation worth having just because he is a great guy to talk tortoises with. I am lucky to know him.
Thanks @Tom - feeling it totally mutual. And Tom's point is a great one. If your only reason to enter into the loan is financial, then the potential for problems between the parties goes way up.
 

jsheffield

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It's premature, as Darwin is still a wee one, but I've thought about ways to either borrow a female or lend Darwin to a fellow redfoot owner for breeding purposes, as I think he (or she) is a handsome tortoise and would love to hatch one or more eggs that carry Darwin's genetic material ... following this thread with interest.

Jamie
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I have left breeding 'loans' behind. I use a scenario, where I buy/sell the animal for the price that the neonates will sell at, and offer the buyer/seller first right of refusal on the offspring at that price. This makes the price neutral between us.

For example, I sold some P. planicauda for $500 each, and I get to buy the same number of produced neonates back. It still requires trust that the person will report and sell the neonates to me. That's a close to win win, where the $$ is not the driver, as I have sorted out.

So with the radiata, whatever price you pay, you offer the sell babies back at that price. Maybe the ratio might be skewed some, like five adults in for x dollars each, and you'll sell 7 neonates back for the same x dollars each. That drives the price down in most cases.

If you never produce, your alleged purpose, then if/when you sell, the source should also get first right of refusal to buy back at whatever the price was.

I've only done this a few times, and the major hold-up is when I sold those P. planicauda, the person who got them has been very slow to sell any at all. As their price has inflated quite a bit from when they sold may be a factor. Had the price deflated, I'd probably decline to buy.
 
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