Breeding Sulcatas

[Redfootedboxturtles]

I was wondering if there is someone out there who would like to debate the issue of captive breeding of sulcata tortoises.

It is pretty much common knowledge that sulcatas are one of if not the most popular pet tortoise. Almost all sulcata owners have hatchlings and most of those hatchlings turn into deformed giants that end up at rescues and sanctuary's.

I have rescued my share of sulcatas For various reasons. The debate here is wether or not it is ok to breed these awesome and beautiful tortoises. Even though the majority of hatchlings are not well taken care of and often dumped when/if they get larger then the owner can manage.

For sake of the debate I can engage in either side of the argument.

 

[Yvonne G]

Sulcatas and red ear sliders...same difference as to breeding. Its like breeding feral cats...there are already too many of them in need of good homes. However I know we're not going to be able to stop the really large breeders of these types of chelonia. There was a little old lady in our turtle club who had about 10 full grown male and female sulcatas. She had wall to wall 50 gallon aquariums in her family room and the aquariums were "wall to wall" with baby sulcatas. There was nothing we could do or say to make her stop breeding them. She died last year and still had over 500 sulcata babies of all ages and shapes, mostly deformed except for the brand new ones. I think the 2 year old that I just rescued today came from her. She sold a few to pet shops and this pet shop where my rescue came from was one that used to buy from her. As long as they can make money at it, we're never going to be able to stop it. And then there are the back yard breeders. No way to convince any of them that they can't make money at it. I used to chop up the eggs in the nest, and was doing so one day when my sister came over. She begged me to let her have just one egg! And she's part of my Rescue. So I understand the attraction.

Yvonne

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

You have even gone as far as crushing the eggs. So you are pretty dedicated to the No Sulcata Breeding.
So your main argument is that the pet market is saturated with sulcata tortoises already. So because of that any hatchlings produced wouldn't find quality homes and would at the best just end up back at sanctuary's and rescues.

Also I like the point you made about most sulcata breeders are trying to make some money.

__

Here is the cities web adressing sulcata tortoises
http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/38.pdf

 

[Jacqui]

I have never had the honor of owning one of these awesome creatures. I keep coming so close to getting one, but then seriously think about the future size they will be and yes for now I have the room for one (or even more), but at almost fifty years of age, I question what kind of a future would this animal possibly be facing.

I see the large numbers being dumped into rescues and it leads me to say we should not be breeding these torts. I feel the same about the Red Eared sliders too, which is why I only house females and also destroy the eggs. However I also see a large number of Russians being placed into shelters.

I think, much as with the large snakes, there needs to be a much better education of potential owners and even breeders. Should you need a license? I have feelings both ways on that subject. I would hate for more species to be under attack with forced ownership limitations and breedings, yet fear that is where we are headed, if we fail to take action now.

It's just so hard for folks (me included) to look past that cute hatchling and see the big adult. Geesh torts aren't even nice like most puppies to have big feet to show us their possible size potential. It would be nice if the vet community could come up with easy, safe, inexpensive neutering and spaying of torts like we do cats and dogs.

Do I have the right to down people for breeding their animals, no. I might ask them to think carefully before doing so. To then, if they are doing it just to show their children this amazing process, to ask them to only incubate a few eggs, not the whole clutch. I can only ask them to do what I myself am willing to do when a species I own becomes in this situation.

I do wonder however, if these torts are indeed as plentiful as we are lead to believe, why is their price still not cheap?

 

[agiletorts]

I don't have sulcata even though I have a decent yard, as I already have other species that's pretty impossible to mix with this giant. But regarding breeding them, I guess the pet owners can do whatever they want, whether morally right or not. As long as there's demand there will be supply and the pet market will continue. Our best bet would just to continue to educate people on how to raise them properly, and rescue those who are not so lucky.

 

[Redfootedboxturtles]

Are there any sulcata breeders that can add this thread?

I was also thinking is this the same or worse then breeding dogs and cats? I mean people breed dogs and cats all day long , pure bred or not. I think its a shame becuase so many are put to death because they have no home. Yet people breed all kinds of stuff like its going out of style. Puppy mills and Home=back yard, breeders.

My question here is how does sulcata breeding compair to dog and cat breeding.

 

[Laura]

Maybe breeders of just about anything.. should be Licensed. if they have to jump thru a few hoops to make money, then they may think twice? Dont charge a lot for the license, but they must show proof of knowledge? Experience? Be Inspected? ???Pet Stores should only be able to buy from these licesensed people? But then here in calif we are just about to make it mandatory that you have to spay or neuter your dogs.. There is a lot of small print and weird rules in this law and i dont like it yet.. is it needed? Something is!! More low cost clinics, funding, education.. but not sure this new law the way it is worded is good,. and of course these type of laws only hurt the already responsible people!
Im on the fence as to how to enforce it, regulate it etc. including the sulcata breeding thing.. For the ones that do survive and need placement there are hundreds or thousands that die and suffer from improper care and probably get tossed out with the trash or buried in the back yard. Not just sulcatas.. but many other pets.
Start by prohibiting sales of tiny hatchlings? No sales at Shows? Mandatory Husbandry classes for new owners or wanna bees? ( should be parenting classes for human children too!)
Not sure what the answer is.. but would be nice to see something started. I know there is the Rescue in Malibu that no longer rescues, but is working on legal stuff and legislation, including the sale of and breeding sulcatas.. Ill try to find the Press Release she sent to me a while back...

 

[Laura]

http://www.tortoise.com/news/press_release_giant_tortoies_12.3.03.html

Here is one.. Its on ther website.

 

[Laura]

Ventura County Star
May 4, 2003
Rescue group pleads, 'Don't buy hatchlings'
May 4, 2003

American Tortoise Rescue in Malibu is one of many turtle and tortoise groups in North America calling on the pet industry to stop selling giant tortoises called sulcatas. Many people who buy cute hatchlings are told sulcatas won't get bigger than their tanks, says Susan Tellem, the Malibu group's co-founder. But after five years, they can weigh 30 pounds or more, she says. "A fully grown sulcata can weigh close to 200 pounds and can easily move a piano or walk through a typical house or apartment wall," Tellem said.

Adult sulcatas can live 50 years or more. Males fight when placed together, and females can easily produce 90 eggs a year. Tellem says zoos will not take the cast-off pets, and owners are mistaken if they think they'll sell huge sulcatas for a large profit. "Remaining options are to dump the animal in the wild or give it up for adoption to a rescue group like ours," Tellem said. "But we can only take a few of them once they are huge." The groups are asking the public to stop buying sulcatas as hatchlings. "Overcrowded rescue (groups) will soon run out of space," Tellem said. "Sadly, at that point, euthanasia might be the only recourse."

 

[Laura]

Animal Shelters arent overrun with them because they send them to rescues. They are not set up to house them. Example: I have 2 i just rescued, literally from the shelter. They were brought in by citizens who found them wandering in the neighborhood. The owners home was forclosed.. anyway.. they were placed a outdoor chainlink dog kennel, fed fruit and veggies. They refused to give them heat because of fire danger. It was in the high forties low fifties at night at that time. They knew they were supposed to be 'soaked' so a few times a day a staff member would pick them up , put them in a tub and then take them out in about 5 minutes. Then more torts came in from the same house.. I large male russian was put in with them because it was thier 'baby' two Red foots also were placed with them. I finally convinced them to move them out, told them what they were, improved the sulcata diet, but they still got not heat. The owner came and got the RF and the Russian, but had no where to take the Sulcatas. 25 and 50 pounds. So I offered to take them. Both males. I had to treat them for RI shortly after I got them.
Anyway... no, torts are not as bad as dogs and cats. I think most die in thier homes before they get a chance to be rescued.. :-(

 

[Jacqui]

So much easier in ways to regulate the dogs and cats. Having the "power" of keeping registration papers until "pet quality" animals are spayed or neutered helps a small bit. The fact that it is easy to find a vet to neuter/spay and even free or cheap clinics are popping up all over to help folks with costs. Plus the numbers in each litter are smaller then the numbers can be from just one clutch. Also most places require you to license your dog or cat, offering cheaper rates to those who choose sterilizations, not so with reptiles. We make not having breedable animals the way to go.

Fact is does any body believe having to get a license to breed will stop anybody, except those who would be doing it right any how?

 

[floridajake]

I own a 7 year old sulcata. I will never breed him for all of the above reasons. It is amazing to me that anyone would want to discard such an amazing animal. I understand that they must be difficult to care up north in the winter. Here in south florida I find my sulcata to be the easiest animal to care for I own, even easier than my dogs and kingsnakes. His food(grass and weeds)is free and his poop looks like horsepoop and turns into fertilizer when it rains. He creates his own shelter(burrow). Basically the only thing I have to do is refresh his water dish daily. I guess that's why there are rarely any large sulcatas for adoption south of orlando. Here in extreme south florida everyone I know who has one absolutely adores it. Mine(Gosder)came to me second hand from New Jersey. I would take more in if the shipping costs weren't so ridiculous. If you are raising a young sulcata and are having second thoughts, please be assured that you will be rewarded for your work if you just find a way to keep it and care for it. If you really can't care for it, please send it down south where it will become a beloved pet and not just get passed on again.

 

[Marla]

I am a sulcata breeder...I don't make any money..they make the money and the money goes back to them...If it wasn't sulcatas it would be another animal..Like all breeders..you have the good breeder and you have the bad breeder...It breaks my heart to see any animal suffer...Animals are part of my waking day and without them bringing the joy to me on a daily bases I would have no purpose to be here..I share that joy with others by offering my babies given to me by my life long tortoises who are my friends...With that said I really feel animals are here to teach us what we as human need to learn while on earth...The sulcata has saved the lives of many wild tortoises..Without the sulcata are pet stores and rescues would be filled with wild caught tortoises instead...The sulcata is a heroe in many ways...If you feel that you are not a breeder to offer healthy happy animals to the public then you should not breed..If you have room in your heart to rescue and educate you should do that.....Thank You to all the rescues and the work you do...

 

[REDFOOTMATT]

I am somewhat torn on this issue. My freind Marla above is one of the caring, responsible breeders and I agree with her feeling about the fact that captive bred animals greatly reduce the demand for importation of the wild caught populations. Still I see so many Sulcatas at the trade shows and they are getting cheaper all the time. ($50-$60 for hatchlings) I see people getting them for their small child and buying a 10 gallon tank! You know they don't have a clue what they are getting into. I just try to make myself feel better by thinking that this species will probably not become endangered in the wild due to exportation. I have not experianced the rescue facilities however. Seeing all those Torts in such bad condition might change the way I feel.

 

[aktech23]

They were brought in by citizens who found them wandering in the neighborhood.

i found my sulcata walking the streets in arizona. no one ever stepped up to claim it.

I figure it was abandoned.
The thing is pets tend to be an impulse buy, and a sulcata is a handful.
these two things do not go together.

 

[JourneyTort]

If you breed then you should also rescue. In my opinion, to be a responsible breeder then one must be responsible for what they produce. If you sell a tort to someone and for whatever reason they no longer can care for it then the breeder should be responsible for that offspring and take the tort back and rehome or keep it. If you can't potentially take care of what you produce then don't keep breeding these torts.

As a side note, they are selling Sulcata's in stores in Canada which to me is absolutely crazy. You know what is going to happen when these torts get too big to carry in and out of the house during winter!!

 

[Jacqui]

If you breed then you should also rescue. In my opinion, to be a responsible breeder then one must be responsible for what they produce. If you sell a tort to someone and for whatever reason they no longer can care for it then the breeder should be responsible for that offspring and take the tort back and rehome or keep it. If you can't potentially take care of what you produce then don't keep breeding these torts.

I found your comment interesting, as that was how I felt when we bred our dogs back when we did some showing. Let's say I bought a Sulcata hatchling from Yvonne (this is all make believe here). The clock moves forward 10 years and I have a 75 lb unmanageable tort. I want Yvonne to take it back now. Question is this: as a responsible breeder is she not only responsible for taking it back , but is she also required to pay the shipping? Or should the buyer have to pay return shipping?

 

[Yvonne G]

Trying to put myself into the mind-set that I would actually breed a sulcata, then I remembered: I ACTUALLY DID!!!

About 4 years ago, when my sister still lived here, Dudley had broken down his fence and got in with the female Sulcata. As a result, she dug three nests over the summer and deposited eggs. My sister came over one day and saw that I was chopping up eggs in the nest with the shovel. She BEGGED me to let her have an egg, and I gave in. She took three eggs, incubated them and hatched out 3 babies. She then moved up to Oregon, gave one baby away, one died and the third baby is Tony. I have an ad in our adoption section here on the forum trying to find a home for Tony, who is now about 14lbs. Maggie can't keep Tony safe from Bob, her bigger sulcata and is now asking me to take him back. She's not going to ship him back to me, but will bring him on her next trip. And I usually pay for her to rent a car to come here, so I DO actually pay the shipping. This is because I'm into tortoise rescue, though. I don't know if I would take him back if I was only breeding and not rescuing. Thanks for the food-for-thought posts.

Yvonne

 

[JourneyTort]

Who is responsible for shipping a returned tort? Should this question really be asked? I would hope the breeder and owner would care enough about the tort to come to an agreement. Like I said before, if you can't be responsible for what you produce then don't produce. Period. Especially this breed of tort. They are so large and require very specific housing needs when they get bigger which reduces the population of people that can provide a 'good' home. I don't see how these torts can be housed sufficiently by the general population when full grown (I know there are some but they would be few and far between, especially if they lived in the northern part of the states).

I still can't believe they are selling these torts in stores in Canada.

How many of these guys come into a rescue situation every year? If you consider how many are actually out there, what is the percentage of animals being produced that end up in rescue and/or die of bad husbandry? I would guess it would be pretty high. Then when they end up in the Humane Societies or animal control they don't know enough about them to properly take care of them.

Just something to think about before you breed your torts.

 

[egyptiandan]

I'll play devil's advocate here seeing as I don't have large tortoises, but do breed.
Say your breeding sulcatas and have say 1.2 and you have enough room for them and maybe a couple of others. You breed and sell some hatchlings. If your policy when you sell is clearly stated that you will take back any unwanted animal when it gets big. Isn't that asking for trouble and making people even more irresponsible. Hey we'll buy from this breeder as she/he will take back my sulcata when it gets big and I know I won't have room for it when it gets big, but I'll buy it anyway.
I just think this makes them an even greater throw away purchase. It gives people to large of an "out", when they should be taking responsibilty for the animal they purchased.
I think if I did take a large tortoise back (and this would be clearly stated with the taking back at the time of purchase) that I'd be charging the person a fee for upkeep of the animal until sold or rehomed.
That would put more responsibilty back on the original buyer. Sulcatas have become the disposible pet of the century and buyers need to be held more resposible and not less resposible for their purchase.

Just how I see it

Danny