Burmese Brown mountain Tortoise and low UV from Florescent Bulb

Jesse Hummel

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I just read a closed thread and first was relieved to find the same thing I'm experiencing with my tortoise, Rocket. I had got him end of July and just like other people followed the recommendations to have the set up ready with florescent UV, the acidic moss I just read about for humidity.
The left eye does open but the Right eye has not opened for 2 days Both were swollen and tearing prior. The vet diagnosed URI, Rocket also had bubbles from his nostrils, and the day of the appointment began raspy breathing.
Three shots, increase temperature and plenty of water available, kept fresh with multiple changes, in the wet end of his waterland medium land tub. I controlled the temperature by using a nocturnal red heat bulb, no UV, The UV florescent tube was in the middle area while his sleeping area was relatively free of UV exposure.
His breathing cleared, his energy was up, apatite up, everything was good and I felt like I did a great job in knowing what to look for with URI and getting him to the vet as soon as I suspected he may have it. I put the lighting back to the original set up and unknowingly exposed my tortoise to radiation.
The past 6 days has been a rapid downward spiral. He spent the majority of his time in the water. I thought he was rehydrating after being sick, unfortunately the water was the only area without UV.
The past few days he stopped eating, hasn't opened one of his eyes, lethargic, and as of today belly crawling. Early when I saw the swelling return I noticed he would perk up and open his eyes during his outdoor time. Today I noticed that he is startled when he comes in contact with object or I touch him. I assume this is because is left eye although open is mostly blind. I check this and found that majority of the time he does not see my finger waving by his open eye, but when I touch him under the chin he has a strong startled reaction. Although I haven't had him long Rocket and I developed a strong bond to the point where he would crawl into my lap when I joined him on the floor. The startled spooky tortoise I have now is not Rocket's normal self.
I have corrected the lighting and I know it will take possible 3 days till the swelling goes down. My concerns are the long term effects of the radiation exposure.
I estimate he's been exposed 5 weeks, 3 prior to the antibiotics and modified condition for recovery lasting 2 weeks, then 2 weeks to current.
If anyone has any thoughts on what kind of recovery please share. I’m hoping for 100%.
 

Jesse Hummel

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Rocket passed away shortly after 4am. Although it's highly unlikely that a tortoise would overhydrate, it's what happened. I left water in his basin area as I have done since I got him in the end of June. Rocket overhydrated to get away from the Low UV output of the florescent bulb that was recommended on the care sheet and product box.

I built a sliding overhead bracket for the light fixture that fit to the wetlands tubs rails. The light could slide 3/4 of the length of the tub. I bought a safety socket to prevent electrocution if the light fell into the water, but also took into consideration the lights overtop of the water basin and did not want to rely on the device. I restricted the lights from sliding that far on the tub's rails.

The past two days I found Rocket soaking in the water. In my ignorance I assumed that he was keeping hydrated as he was recovering from a URI. I would not have guessed or concluded that he was avoiding the light that was damaging his eyes.

I'm veteran of the United States Coast Guard diagnosed with PTSD and major depression from serving as a first responder. I waited 20 years to get help. Getting Rocket as a birthday gift to myself was and is a turning point in my life, he saved me from my thoughts and gave me purpose.

Prior to ordering Rocket I researched what type of tortoise I wanted and how to best take care of it. I picked the name Rocket carefully, I knew that at 3 years I would not be certain of gender and didn't want to rename Rocket or be that guy with a female tortoise named Maximus.
My girl encouraged me to share my enthusiasm of Chelonian to classrooms at her summer camp. Rocket was very social and curious and the children respected the rules I shared with them to not cause stress to Rocket. My presentation was heavy ended on what is required to take care of a tortoise, turtle, or terrapin, the personalities of each, and proper keeping and handling. The direction was heavily influenced by the then future release of the TMNT. I decided that talking to children about Chelonian is what I wanted to do with my time. I have Rocket to thank again for giving me purpose and feeling passionate about something.
In the evening Rocket was restless and only relaxed resting on my chest. I stayed up with him until he had a seizure and passed this morning.

This is horrible and wrong. I would have never predicted the outcome or cause. The choices I made would not have ended Rocket's life alone. When you combine the decisions I made with the problems of these light bulbs it is devastating.

Reading about these light bulbs it’s apparent that I did not hit a sole isolated combination of detrimental conditions. My understanding is that the manufactures know their product has contributed negatively to the very animals they are designed for on a broad scale.

If I would have looked at forums as a source of experts while doing my research, I would have never picked up that lighting. I'm just not used to forums being an authority on a subject matter.

Please put this story in a place where people interested in owning a tortoise for the first time can see it so they begin to understand the valuable information that the owners have to share about these animals and the products that are readily available to avoid.

Today I will be taking the light and bulb to the store that I bought it from along with the thank you cards from the children that got to meet Rocket and learn about Chelonian. I’ll also be taking Rocket so they can see what the product on the shelf did to the small creature.

Thank you.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Jesse, and welcome to the Forum! What a terrible story. I'm so very sorry about what happened to Rocket.

I'd like to clear up a few points, though.

Of course, without a necropsy, no one can be sure what cause Rocket's death, so I'm not going to talk about that, but rather about the Manouria tortoises in general.

These tortoises come from the rain forest. They can't take bright lights or direct sun for any length of time. They also sit in the water a lot. My Manouria sit in their waterer sometimes all night long. This does not have any adverse effect on them. They sit in the water to get away from the heat of the day. In the wild you will find them wading and swimming all the time. It's just what they do.

Manouria are similar to box turtles. They can get their vitamin d3 from their food and don't really need a UVB light for this process.

The problem we have seen with bulbs has been seen in the spiral-shaped compact fluorescent bulbs, and a few problems with the other shaped compacts if they were mounted vertically instead of horizontally. But mainly the problem was akin to snow-blindness...it burns their eyes.

I have raised Manouria from babies and have quite a bit of experience with them. I start the babies in a tort table, but the table is outside in the Manouria shed. So the babies get real, filtered sunshine almost from hatching. I don't use a UVB bulb with them. I did put in a T-5 tube one time, but the babies stayed hiding all the time, so I removed it. I provide heat through a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb during the day and a black bulb at night. I keep them very moist, with wet substrate, moist moss in the hiding place and frequent soaks.

I'm so very sorry about what happened to Rocket. I can understand how you came to love the tortoise. They are wonderful creatures. I hope that at some time in the future you can see your way clear to get another Manouria tortoise. You won't be sorry. They are great!
 

AmRoKo

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Wow I'm so sorry this happened, it's a horrible thing to lose something we love especially if we tried everything possible to make them healthy. It sounds as though you are a very compassionate tort carer, I also hope that you will one day again choose to get another tort, they are indeed great. I myself also suffer from a variety of mental problems which medication alone cannot deter and have to find ways to cope. I find tortoises have also helped tremendously in I too find purpose and that for some reason I just absolutely love taking care of them and building stuff for them! :)
 

mikeh

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Welcome to the forum. I am sorry to hear the sad story.

As Ivonne said only necropsy can reveal cause of death. But some more info may shed some light. How old/big was the tortoise?
Would you mind sharing some info on the bulb and husbandry?
What type of uv bulb exactly was used and who is the manufacturer? How high was the bulb placed?
What were the temperatures and humidity in the enclosure?
What kind of substrate was used?
Could you post photos of enclosure as it was?
Did the kids get to touch the tortoise? How often was the tortoise transported in the car?
Was the tortoise exposed cold ac blowing in the car? What about air-conditioning drafts in the house?

While some compact UV bulbs may cause I problems, I have not heard of URI association. One of our members is doing some testing on suspect UV bulbs. Perhaps you can send it to him.
 
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KevinGG

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Take a deep breath. Know that you are appreciated. Take another deep breath. Everything is ok. This is a learning experience. Take another deep breath. You have a community who will care and guide you. Relax and take a deep breath.
 

Jesse Hummel

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How old/big was the tortoise?
-7", 3 years old

Would you mind sharing some info on the bulb and husbandry?
- provided spring water or tap water that sat for minimum 3 days with open top. Water bottles were solely for Rocket and kept under the tortoise table.
- provided food daily, Mazuri tortoise diet mixed with mushrooms, or dandelion greens. Six Mazuri Pellets made moist with water from his bottle source. Treated with a slice of banana, earthworm, or wax worm.
-dedicated hand rake and shovel for cleaning refuse, checking moisture content of substrate, and detecting mold or other concerns. Bought new and washed after use. Same with tweezers used for feeding.
-Water in basin area of wetlands tub kept fresh and sometimes changed multiple times due to rocket using it for waste.
-Mild saline solution to flush eyes in the morning and end of day once they began swelling the second time around, this was last Thursday.
-Supervised outdoor time and indoor time when not in habitat.
-Washed my hands before handling.
-Lighting set on timers to provide 11 hour days
-Occasionally additional water placed in a large stainless steel plate.
-I initially placed a hide in the remote corner of the habitat. Rocket would push this out of the way as best he could and dig down into the mulch. He dug two bedding areas like this in the cool side of the habitat in the corners. I removed the hide after it became apparent he preferred his holes for sleeping. I used a dry wash cloth to cover him at night after the vet made the suggestion.
- Rocket was kept in my bedroom, there is no traffic other than when we go to sleep and wake in the morning. I don’t keep a TV or computer in the bedroom. I considered this the best space for these reasons and wanted to provide him with privacy.
What type of uv bulb exactly was used and who is the manufacturer? How high was the bulb placed?
-All living things light fixture, 17w, 120 volt 5.0 UVB Tube. Placed 12 to 17 inches from substrate. Variance based on areas Rocket dug out.
What were the temperatures and humidity in the enclosure?
-Temp lows 70 highs 80. Humidity lows 60 highs 85, stayed at 80 for majority of the time.
What kind of substrate was used?
-Cypress Mulch and sphagnum moss with 3 pieces of store bought drift wood.
Could you post photos of enclosure as it was?
-Yes
http://screencast.com/t/GbjWyJwHTP
-Image of the tub prior to substrate and rockets arrival.
http://screencast.com/t/UUkG1ul6xD6
Did the kids get to touch the tortoise? How often was the tortoise transported in the car?
-No I informed the kids at the start that they were not allowed to hover over, touch, make sudden movements, or loud noises. They respected these rules.
- 3 vet visits in the car. The day care is a 3 minute walk next door.

Was the tortoise exposed cold ac blowing in the car? What about air-conditioning drafts in the house?
- I don't run AC in my car, or my house. I do circulate air with open windows in the car and with fans in the house. Rocket was never in a direct line of a fan and I cracked the window to minimize air while in the car. While on the floor I would redirect fans or shut them off. I took Rocket outside to sit in the shade sometimes twice a day. There were some occasions that my medical appointments and weather conflicts did not allow me to get Rocket outside.

While some compact UV bulbs may cause I problems, I have not heard of URI association. One of our members is doing some testing on suspect UV bulbs. Perhaps you can send it to him.
- Like it was stated, I wouldn't know exactly what happened without a procedure. He was diagnosed with URI treated and recovering with clear breathing, no bubbles or discharge, and returned energy and appetite for over one week.
 

Jesse Hummel

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I do plan on getting another Burmese Brown. I know of the Burmese Black but do not know the differences in personality, care, size, or success. I have read conflicting information on the black from various sources.

For now I need to deep clean Rockets Tub, remove the Substrate, deep clean or replace the tools, and last locate a tortoise. Rocket has a Jade Green carapace that is beautiful. I don't know if it's common. I included a detail of Rocket's coloring.

http://screencast.com/t/u8Eu6gBjrThc

Thank you, Jesse
 

mikeh

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Everything about your care seems to be spot on. Perhaps with the exception of day time temp. 80F is low. Contrary to what much of the internet info says, these guys should he able to gradually warm up their core to upper 80s during the day. Mine like to soak up the warmth even at lower 90s. This is ambient, indirect heat, not direct sun.
This is purely speculation on my part, the lower temp may have contributed to URI if the animal came from very warm prior environment and much different humidity. However some folks do keep them at lower temps with no I'll effect.
All living things bulbs are garbage. However, it is very unlikely that at the configuration you describe it would cause any I'll effects, if anything it wasn't doing anything at that distance.
I do have two nice juvenile Burmese Browns raised from hatchlings, about the same size as yours now, but may be of different locale as they are rounder rather then oval shape. If you are interested, I would be willing to part with one, if its the right match for you and the animal as well. I can give you all the details about the animals.
 

Jesse Hummel

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Thank you Mikeh I will contact you about your offer. I am defiantly thinking more clearly about the entire experience. Saturday night I was in a panic and I realize the first thread I found with similar symptoms would have been my focus point.

I understand what you are saying about the temperature. I have a temp gun and found that the highest temp he would reach prior to cooling in the basin area was 82 degrees. I attempted to bring one side of the tub's ambient temp up higher with a ceramic element it would not exceed low eighties. I used the nocturnal red bulb on a dimmer directing it's focus on the side of the tub. That allowed me to bring that side of the tub's air temp up to 90 degrees or higher with slight adjustment on the dimmer. Rocket's body temp tolerance remained in the low 80's. and he would locate an area of the tub where he could keep his temp in the low 80's. I don't know if there are any risks involved in using the nocturnal light for day time ambient temperatures with the lamp focused on the side of the tub. I did not want to use a heat bulb because I was aware that they did not care for direct sunlight or basking heat.

The majority of Rockets scutes were either concave, convex, or had lipped edges where the newer growth was not as developed as prior growth. Like reverse pyramid I guess. On the second day I noticed the tearing and on the third day I contacted the individual I purchased Rocket from requesting any history with the left eye or any other issues I would need to address. I never received a call back. Last night I emailed this person and explained the events and what Rocket meant to me. I asked that they please respond so that I can understand better what had happened as I intend to attempt with another Brown Burmese.

I don't know if I will get a response, but it would be nice to get some understanding of who I bought Rocket from. Prior to reading Mikeh's post I thought a lot today about what he describes as a good match. I am not going to draw conclusions on the person and their practices I bought Rocket from. I have decided that the next Emys I get I will select based on its current level of care and my ability to match those conditions as close as possible to lessen the stress caused by the transition. I also would want to be responsible for transportation, I can only image air travel or other shipping is a stressful experience and a chance for trauma.

Ultimately being more involved in the selection, transportation, and interaction with the keeper before and after are the major changes I will be making. I feel this will account for the majority of questions I have regarding Rocket. I also will know that it’s most likely an issue on my end and with the knowledge of prior husbandry and access to the owner I feel I would be able to quickly identify and correct the issue.
 

Yvonne G

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"Reverse pyramiding" is quite common in the Manouria babies. They need to be kept very moist. It isn't a harmful situation, and quickly clears up with more water. The runny eye might also be attributed to dryness. When too dry or too hot their eyes water.

When you get your new tortoise, don't be so afraid of treating it like a tortoise. You don't need to take such 'pristine' measures. Remember, they live outside in the wild, amid rotting vegetation, mold and dirt, foraging in leaf litter and wading in shallow streams. Just relax and enjoy him.

I keep many, many plants in the baby habitat. Lots of plants filters the bright light so the babies aren't exposed to the very bright light.
 

Jesse Hummel

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Thank you Yvonne, you're posts are awesome, you should convert them all to a book and make your knowledge and advise known beyond this forum, if you are not already.

Do you attempt to keep plants native to their range or do you keep local plants?

Thanks, Jesse
 

Yvonne G

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The only natives I have are the Allocasia. There is a very large H'mong community in my area, so the stores sometimes stock elephant ear tubers. So I have quite a few different varieties of them. I also have Heavenly Bamboo, which is toxic, but native to their area. Everything else is just what I can buy here at plant nurseries or online. A few years a go I planted a beautiful banana tree in the ground. It came out of a 10" pot, so was a nice size tree. The Mep hate the whole tree the first day, then dug up the roots and ate them the second day. I'm going to plant more, but now that I know how it goes, I'll protect them better.
 
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