Buying a sick tortoise tomorrow, delayed growth, losing claws, need help ASAP

[Stoneman]

So, I saw a post on a page about an owner willing to get rid of his torts. They are Indian star tortoises, and they do not look like they have had the greatest care. Before we even get started, please do not get your wheels turning about biosecurity. As soon as I get them they are going into segregated housing, and getting tested for mycoplasma and herpesvirus, as well as getting fecal evaluations.

So, on with the story. The tortoises have not been kept in ideal health. The smaller one is the one I am most concerned about, it is the same age I believe as the larger one. It did not continue to grow. It is not eating correctly or as active. I am getting both of them today in a shipment, I hope that the small male survives, and that he makes it, but I am most concerned about the cause of the missing nails. His claws started falling out recently. What is the cause of this? MBD? Perhaps poor calcium absorbtion? Low in macro/ micronutrients?

I was only able to find a single post somewhere that stated the cause was low humidity in the enclosure/ dehydration. Glancing at the setup, and the larger one's pyramiding, I am pretty sure that they are not too hydrated, bathed, or have ideal humidity within the enclosure.

When I get them, the smaller on is going into an RCOM 50 incubator, and the larger one is going into his own enclosure for quarantine and observation. I am going to sprinkle herptivite indoors and some ReptiCal calcium onto their foods. I feed grocery greens and hydrated pellets. Hopefully this works.

Please let me know if you have any recommendations on what to do about the small one, the cause of the loss of toenails, and what to do to correct the underlying problem.

 

[Stoneman]

 

[Stoneman]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&set=pcb.315726172289182&type=3&theater&ifg=1

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...&set=pcb.315726172289182&type=3&theater&ifg=1

I am not sure how to post a link, the forum would not allow me to upload an image and I do not have a website for the images, so I guess if they want to be a pain about it you can just message me and I could send it. The pics are not very informative, just a tortoise hidden in his shell and some missing fingernails.

 

[wellington]

It won't let me view the pics. Just be sure it's not a scam. Scammers are every place and they are out at it at this time. If it seems too good to be true it is.

 

[Yvonne G]

Separating them and starting better care will go a long way towards helping their health. We have a good care sheet posted at the top of the star section.

 

[Markw84]

So, I saw a post on a page about an owner willing to get rid of his torts. They are Indian star tortoises, and they do not look like they have had the greatest care. Before we even get started, please do not get your wheels turning about biosecurity. As soon as I get them they are going into segregated housing, and getting tested for mycoplasma and herpesvirus, as well as getting fecal evaluations.

So, on with the story. The tortoises have not been kept in ideal health. The smaller one is the one I am most concerned about, it is the same age I believe as the larger one. It did not continue to grow. It is not eating correctly or as active. I am getting both of them today in a shipment, I hope that the small male survives, and that he makes it, but I am most concerned about the cause of the missing nails. His claws started falling out recently. What is the cause of this? MBD? Perhaps poor calcium absorbtion? Low in macro/ micronutrients?

I was only able to find a single post somewhere that stated the cause was low humidity in the enclosure/ dehydration. Glancing at the setup, and the larger one's pyramiding, I am pretty sure that they are not too hydrated, bathed, or have ideal humidity within the enclosure.

When I get them, the smaller on is going into an RCOM 50 incubator, and the larger one is going into his own enclosure for quarantine and observation. I am going to sprinkle herptivite indoors and some ReptiCal calcium onto their foods. I feed grocery greens and hydrated pellets. Hopefully this works.

Please let me know if you have any recommendations on what to do about the small one, the cause of the loss of toenails, and what to do to correct the underlying problem.

I rarely see or hear about loss of toenails in tortoises. Off hand, the two possible causes would be fungal, or injury. The incessant digging at the corner of a poorly set up enclosure could possibly do it with a star, that is not a real digging tortoise. If fungal, getting the tortoise is a proper enclosure, with proper hydration and regular soaking would help, along with some anti fungal cream applied to the area.

Getting the smaller tortoise in a proper enclosure, with plants and hides to feel secure, and high humidity and temps will help a lot. I would soak daily to help metabolic function. I soak in water that comes up to where the costals meet the marginals. I use water that is 95°-100° to boost core temps and soak for a min of 30 minutes. Hopefully this will also get the tortoise some exercise as it should start moving about in the soaking tub after several minutes. That exercise is a good thing and helps develop proper movement through the gut. Soaking should also prompt the tortoise to defecate in the water. This also help develop good gut movement and also keeps the enclosure cleaner and parasite loads from building.

Get the diet pushed more towards natural weeds. Favor the good high calcium plants with a good calcium/phosphorus ratio. Grape leaves, mulberry leaves, dandelion, plantain, clover, etc. with store-bought, Incorporate some opuntia catctus, dandelion (chicory), loose leaf lettuce, endive. I like using Mazuri tortoise diet and soaking the pellets and adding a few to the top of the food pile. All my tortoises soon start eating off the Mazuri first. I also use hay cubes I but at a feed store. I get the orchard grass cubes or the alfalfa/orchard grass mix cubes. I break one up and soak it and mix it with the Mazuri. This gives a nice balance of food diet items and the calcium and minerals needed added to the diet. This will also help add weight and good growth.

Read this post for ideas on how I see the best way to keep a star healthy and thriving...

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-star-tortoise.159167/

 

[crimson_lotus]

I don't know if it's the same with tortoises but my turtle was losing his nails when I first got him. He had a severe vitamin a deficiency which worked itself right out with proper diet

 

[mark1]

I bought a turtle one time , she arrived with most of her nails missing , the remainder were stubs . it was diagnosed as a bacterial infection in the nail bed . I used chlorhexidine topically . if I remember correctly , I initially used povidone iodine ......... she also had sores on her feet , so she was also on injectable antibiotics ......

 

[Stoneman]

So, I am pretty new here. I cannot figure out how to post the pictures. I read over the help section three times, which is where they directed new members to learn how to add photos. Which didn't work. If you guys could point me in the direction of how I do that or how I can get that done it would be a ton of help.

It won't let me view the pics. Just be sure it's not a scam. Scammers are every place and they are out at it at this time. If it seems too good to be true it is.

Yeah if the guy was trying to scam me he would have sent me better looking images, and told me the tortoises were much healthier than they were. These ones are all messed up. I am going to have to put in a lot of work to get them in better shape.

 

[Stoneman]

I got them today, I brushed them off with some dish detergent, and then put some non-activated oxine in both of their waters. I gave both of them a shot 1ml of Tylan 200, and I am going to continue to dose them for that for five days. I am going to get them on Panacur as soon as they are accepting food. I am keeping the light on 24/7 to help reduce any MBD, and I have added calcium and other micronutrients to their water. I have softened up some food for them, Mazuri Grassland, and some alfalfa hay, and gave them some opuntia cactus with collard greens and cabbage.

Tomorrow I am going to use some providone Iodine on the little ones toes, and apply that twice daily. Because whether it is a fungal or bacterial, iodine is a good non-caustic antiseptic.

They have been housed together for a while, I am going to separate them soon, but they are in the same enclosure right now. This weekend I will separate their enclosures, they do not seem to mind being together too much, I do not observe any bullying. However, disease control and creating low stress environments is the priority.

I do not observe any RNS. The male appears underweight, has severe pyramiding for one his size. It is really bad. I hope I can correct it. I am misting their enclosure several times daily, and I all my tortoises have humid hide escapes, and access to water bowls.

The small one has swelling within the cavities, on his rear and up near the front. It is as though he is bulging out. He has not had any significant growth within two years. The previous owner took him into a vet last fall, and he gave him Baytril, obviously that vet should not be practicing medicine if he prescribed star tortoises Baytril, but he also gave an antiparasite. Hopefully it was Fenbendazole, because those diseases are more manageable. I hope he does not have a fluke or something that would require metronidazole, which I would not feel comfortable dosing on such a small tortoise.

 

[zovick]

I got them today, I brushed them off with some dish detergent, and then put some non-activated oxine in both of their waters. I gave both of them a shot 1ml of Tylan 200, and I am going to continue to dose them for that for five days. I am going to get them on Panacur as soon as they are accepting food. I am keeping the light on 24/7 to help reduce any MBD, and I have added calcium and other micronutrients to their water. I have softened up some food for them, Mazuri Grassland, and some alfalfa hay, and gave them some opuntia cactus with collard greens and cabbage.

Tomorrow I am going to use some providone Iodine on the little ones toes, and apply that twice daily. Because whether it is a fungal or bacterial, iodine is a good non-caustic antiseptic.

They have been housed together for a while, I am going to separate them soon, but they are in the same enclosure right now. This weekend I will separate their enclosures, they do not seem to mind being together too much, I do not observe any bullying. However, disease control and creating low stress environments is the priority.

I do not observe any RNS. The male appears underweight, has severe pyramiding for one his size. It is really bad. I hope I can correct it. I am misting their enclosure several times daily, and I all my tortoises have humid hide escapes, and access to water bowls.

The small one has swelling within the cavities, on his rear and up near the front. It is as though he is bulging out. He has not had any significant growth within two years. The previous owner took him into a vet last fall, and he gave him Baytril, obviously that vet should not be practicing medicine if he prescribed star tortoises Baytril, but he also gave an antiparasite. Hopefully it was Fenbendazole, because those diseases are more manageable. I hope he does not have a fluke or something that would require metronidazole, which I would not feel comfortable dosing on such a small tortoise.

The small one's soft tissue bulges in the leg socket areas indicate kidney failure. You will be lucky to keep that one alive. Giving it a lot of medications will further stress its failing kidneys.

I would not recommend keeping the light on 24 hours a day. Try 16-18 hours on and 6-8 hours off. They need a break from the constant light.

 

[wellington]

So, I am pretty new here. I cannot figure out how to post the pictures. I read over the help section three times, which is where they directed new members to learn how to add photos. Which didn't work. If you guys could point me in the direction of how I do that or how I can get that done it would be a ton of help.


Yeah if the guy was trying to scam me he would have sent me better looking images, and told me the tortoises were much healthier than they were. These ones are all messed up. I am going to have to put in a lot of work to get them in better shape.

I figured that. I just didn't know if you were the only one thinking they were sick. Unbelievable what people will think of their own pets. So many don't get it when their tortoise had no room to move that the enclosure is too small. Wasn't sure if this person realized his torts were sick and in bad shape.

 

[Stoneman]

Thank you Wellington, yeah I know what you mean, some people are ignorantly blissful.

The small one's soft tissue bulges in the leg socket areas indicate kidney failure. You will be lucky to keep that one alive. Giving it a lot of medications will further stress its failing kidneys.

I would not recommend keeping the light on 24 hours a day. Try 16-18 hours on and 6-8 hours off. They need a break from the constant light.

Hey Zovick, unless you coincidentally share the same first half of the last name, and are in the same field as the other person, I am pretty sure we are in touch through email. I tried to send you a private message to let you know about my hunch, but I cannot figure out how to do that on this forum, like other problems I am having with this forum.

I thought you meant when you said give it light "all day' you meant 24/7. I read a medical article that stated that if there is a renal infection causing the problem, that antibiotics would be very beneficial, but I guess without testing it is unlikely to be determined, and how would a renal infection get to the kidneys. Especially since renal failure caused by other problems caused by negligence is much more common. I will follow your direction. I am really starting to regret this purchase. I knew I should have kept better biosecurity, I should not have risked introducing disease through a non-reputable care-taker.

 

[zovick]

Thank you Wellington, yeah I know what you mean, some people are ignorantly blissful.


Hey Zovick, unless you coincidentally share the same first half of the last name, and are in the same field as the other person, I am pretty sure we are in touch through email. I tried to send you a private message to let you know about my hunch, but I cannot figure out how to do that on this forum, like other problems I am having with this forum.

I thought you meant when you said give it light "all day' you meant 24/7. I read a medical article that stated that if there is a renal infection causing the problem, that antibiotics would be very beneficial, but I guess without testing it is unlikely to be determined, and how would a renal infection get to the kidneys. Especially since renal failure caused by other problems caused by negligence is much more common. I will follow your direction. I am really starting to regret this purchase. I knew I should have kept better biosecurity, I should not have risked introducing disease through a non-reputable care-taker.

Yes, I am Bill Zovickian, the same person to whom you send the emails. Read the info I sent you. It tells exactly how I set up the lighting including the hours of light per day. Giving the tortoise UV for only an hour or so daily is not sufficient and that is how your post sounded which is why I said it was not enough. You really need a Solarmeter (the 6.5 model only) to get a handle on the UV your lights are putting out. You want a reading of about 3.0 or so at tortoise level to give the smaller tortoises adequate UV.

I am not sure what you meant about how a renal infection would get to the kidneys. Renal means having to do with the kidneys, so it is a kidney infection by definition. If you meant how do the kidneys become infected, that could be from bacteria in the bloodstream or in the urinary tract (ureters, bladder, possibly even cloaca).

Taking those tortoises to a reptile vet would be better than taking a shotgun approach doing it yourself and hitting already stressed animals with a wide range of antibiotics and worming medications which will further stress their systems. IE, you only want to use the medications which will treat the problems they are found to have by the vet, not try to kill everything possible with loads of meds.

I am going to be away for a few days now so this will be my last post for a while. Good luck.

 

[Stoneman]

Thank you Bill for your direction. I read your article, and it answers a lot of my questions. I appreciate whatever time you or others has to share. Light is on a new timer, and I will buy the tool for measuring the uvb transmission. It has been on the wish list for about a year, but I decided periodic replacements would be effective. Now that I know the manufactures can me misleading, I am going to buy the sensor. I also plan to diversify the light spectrum as you described in the article.

I thought renal failure was caused by issues besides infection. I thought it was caused by things like kidney stones, blockage of other material like a poor calcium phosphorous ratio, or a shutdown of the system by a biological process gone awry for other reasons besides microbes. I was unaware they were generally caused by infection.

Here are some pictures of the tortoises, I selected the pictures that show the tortoises swollen cavities. I noticed it especially in the smaller one, which is the same age as the larger one, the underdeveloped one was actually larger than the other one in the beginning. They both look to me as though they have swollen cavities. I am trying to get it out of the previous owner what the results of the lab were, but he either does not know or is withholding information. They are both eating. He told me has has fed either zoomed or mazuri the entire time. The larger one was unfortunately prescribed Baytril, fortunately it appears as though he did not have an allergic reaction to the medication. He was also prescribed a de-woemer, although he can not recall the type of medication or the infection.

I have been most concerned about disease transmission, I am going to get a lab done to test for Mycoplasma. I have a centrifuge and a microscope, so I am going to do a fecal exam this week to test for parasite loads.

I bought these tortoises as a rescue attempt, because although my abilities are far from a licenced vet, I feel that I could provide a better shot at life than a general hobbyist taking on a their new pets.

If both of them have what appears to be renal failure, I am not going to waste the money on something that is not treatable, I will research myself, take advice from wise people, and do the best I can. Money is unusually tight and at this point it makes more sense to use it invest in better equipment and supplies that will measurably improve the quality of life of my existing colony, than it will to pour a thousand dollars into a lost cause. I wish I could do both, not this month.

If the seller had been honest and straightforward about their conditions, I would never have bought them at all. I am going to provide daily intensive care, if they improve and are not plagued by chronic renal failure, I will get a professional diagnosis and go from there. If anyone wants to evaluate the images of the larger one feel free. They look swollen to me.

 

[ShirleyTX]

Thank you for giving these sick little ones a fighting chance.....

 

[Stoneman]

I bought a turtle one time , she arrived with most of her nails missing , the remainder were stubs . it was diagnosed as a bacterial infection in the nail bed . I used chlorhexidine topically . if I remember correctly , I initially used povidone iodine ......... she also had sores on her feet , so she was also on injectable antibiotics ......

Thank you for sharing, did your tortoise also have swelling in the shell cavities, like the ones in my pictures? Which species of turtle was it? I have read that it is more common in tortoises, but caused by Vitamin A deficiency, or something like that. Do you know? How long did your turtle survive, if not, how long much longer did it live for? Do you have any pictures? Did the nails ever grown back?

 

[mark1]

Thank you for sharing, did your tortoise also have swelling in the shell cavities, like the ones in my pictures? Which species of turtle was it? I have read that it is more common in tortoises, but caused by Vitamin A deficiency, or something like that. Do you know? How long did your turtle survive, if not, how long much longer did it live for? Do you have any pictures? Did the nails ever grown back?

she survived till this day , it was 2-3yrs ago , she has hibernated succesfully 2-3 times since and laid eggs once ...... she is a n.a.wood turtle ..... no swelling , just the rotten and missing nails and skin sores ...... don't remember for sure , but i believe she was eating so they wouldn't have given her any vitamin supplements , just antibiotics and the chlorhexidine ...... i've used A,D,E, And B injections on many turtles , i think vit A deficiency is more common in them than tortoises ? i also think the dosing of vitamin A injections is really critical as far as not overdosing it ...... better to feed it than inject it .....

 

[Stoneman]

Yeah vitamin A deficiency is much more common in them. I am glad that your tortoise is doing so well. Thank you for your help. Mine is stable, his environment is much more stable than before.

I am giving it a long soak twice per day. All the food he can eat. I am giving it calcium supplement and I have it on a low placed UVB bulb. The lowest calcium phosphorus ratio I feed is cabbage which I have read has an ideal ratio of 2:1, but I am feeding red chard, mushrooms, and opuntia cactus which is like 26:1. I am hoping that if the calcium level is much higher than phosphorous, that it will give the kidneys a chance to process what is hopefully a correctable temporary back log. I gave it antibiotic tylosin the first day, but then found out that it or penicillin is hard on kidneys, and was advised to not try to heal a kidney infection because it will likely make things worse.