Calcium phosphate ratio oxalates

Lincoln Michal

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We tortoise keepers don't want pyramiding and deformed tortoises due to abnormal bone development. We obsess over UV sources: lamps or sunlight. My experience is that diets with the right Calcium phosphorus ratio is just as important to growing a smooth dense shell. For example, A friend grazes his tortoises on his lawn which is mainly white clover after several years of rapid growth they are extremely smooth. Clover and other legumes have much more calcium then phosphorus about 5:1. Some people say we should limit legumes do to their high protein. I disagree. My experience is that you can feed lots of clover/legumes and get great results because of the high Calcium and protein with adequate UV. At times I feed half legumes. Also, its very important to limit plants with high levels of oxalates which binds up the calcium and can cause bladder stones. Ed Pirog I know has had similar experience especially concerning the bladder stones. I also like Mazuri diet because the urate waste (turtle pee) is nice and white and not gritty sort of like bird droppings. I noticed if you feed to many dandelians you get gritty grey colored waste even with good hydration. The minerals such as sodium etc in the Mazuri has something to do with it. What's your experience.
 

Lincoln Michal

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I agree. Raising tortoises is like taking care of greenhouse plants. You have to give them the proper temperture, humidity. light, and water. In addition you have to minimize stress. With tortoises that means secure hides etc. In the wild, tortoises are under rocks, logs, brush etc. If their in the open their often eaten and loss water more rapidly to evaporation ( especially small ones ). To shift the subject, I don't think its a good idea to sprinkle excessive calcium powder on a tortoise's food. If a little is good more is not better, so if you go much over 7/1 ratio calcium to phosphorus you will cause health problems. Healthy tortoises are fun and easy to raise. Just find out what their needs are and give it to them.
 

ZEROPILOT

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I agree. Raising tortoises is like taking care of greenhouse plants. You have to give them the proper temperture, humidity. light, and water. In addition you have to minimize stress. With tortoises that means secure hides etc. In the wild, tortoises are under rocks, logs, brush etc. If their in the open their often eaten and loss water more rapidly to evaporation ( especially small ones ). To shift the subject, I don't think its a good idea to sprinkle excessive calcium powder on a tortoise's food. If a little is good more is not better, so if you go much over 7/1 ratio calcium to phosphorus you will cause health problems. Healthy tortoises are fun and easy to raise. Just find out what their needs are and give it to them.
How much calcium or if to give any at all is a common thing asked here.
 

Tom

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We tortoise keepers don't want pyramiding and deformed tortoises due to abnormal bone development. We obsess over UV sources: lamps or sunlight. My experience is that diets with the right Calcium phosphorus ratio is just as important to growing a smooth dense shell. For example, A friend grazes his tortoises on his lawn which is mainly white clover after several years of rapid growth they are extremely smooth. Clover and other legumes have much more calcium then phosphorus about 5:1. Some people say we should limit legumes do to their high protein. I disagree. My experience is that you can feed lots of clover/legumes and get great results because of the high Calcium and protein with adequate UV. At times I feed half legumes. Also, its very important to limit plants with high levels of oxalates which binds up the calcium and can cause bladder stones. Ed Pirog I know has had similar experience especially concerning the bladder stones. I also like Mazuri diet because the urate waste (turtle pee) is nice and white and not gritty sort of like bird droppings. I noticed if you feed to many dandelians you get gritty grey colored waste even with good hydration. The minerals such as sodium etc in the Mazuri has something to do with it. What's your experience.

I don't know that I'd agree a diet of half legumes is good advice…

Protein for tortoise has been a villain for years. It was thought to be the cause for pyramiding for a lot of years, and some people still think it is. I think the bigger problem with protein comes when it is combined with the typical dry, dehydrated conditions usually associated with the species that are mistakenly believed to need desert conditions. Like sulcatas. There is nothing wrong with legumes, protein or Mazrui for a tortoise that is house correctly, fed well and kept hydrated.

I'm glad you pointed this out and started this topic.

My experience is that moderate levels of protein from vegetable sources like legumes and green beans, as well as occasional Mazuri is a good thing, as long as the tortoise gets lots of other stuff and is well hydrated.

I'll bet @DeanS might have some comments on this subject.
 

Lincoln Michal

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Thanks Tom, I agree that's how I feed. I give mazuri maybe once a month sometimes more often. Tom and others are working hard to get the word out. Hydration, hydration and more hydration. Humid moist substrate, humid air and regular warm bathes. Also, fresh drinking water available all the time. Warmth, good diet, and natural sunlight. I have read that Gila Monsters spent most of their time in cavities under rocks where the ground is moist and the air is humid. Simply, they are not stressed by water loss. Same with wild tortoises. Room to move about. Security with many places to hide. Watch out that they are not bullied by other torts. Don't flip over in the sun and cook. Don't mix different species. Quarantine new tortoises ( to avoid herpes.parasites etc.). Wash hands and use disposible gloves between different groups of tortoises. Balance these factors, Tortoises will thrive
 

Lincoln Michal

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I forget one more thing, Make sure your outdoor pens are secure from predators. Raccoons and dogs can kill and cripple tortoises. I have heard many horror stories. They can dig into pens. Tortoises are also most vulnerable when small or dormant in winter.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Yeah. I went to recent talk by a globally well recognized Vet. Two things.

1) Tortoises that go through his clinical are all sampled for blood and what it can tell you, Universally tortoises show too LOW a component level indicating protein in the diet. He said people withhold protein to the point most tortoises in captivity that he sees have chronic low protein.

2) There is not one single case reported in the literature or from a study not published that indicates any tortoise has had a "calcium" stone due to oxalates. Not one ever. NOT ONE. Lizards, none tortoise chelonians are not in this census.

Another thing, spinach is okay within a well balanced diet, no need to exclude it.

Also, yet another thing. No tortoise has ever been cited in any lit with a goiter. So what more does that tell us? The one article that suggested goiter could be a thing, the author would withdraw the article if he could. It's the thymus that gets swollen. Anyhow, people who literally have spent their considerable life are saying this, I'm believing it. When people who study these things can point to the error, I'll re-visit the concern.

Airplane mechanics are not reptile vets, airplane mechanics are not even globally recognized reptile medicine practitioners.
 

Lincoln Michal

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The thing about protein is an animal needs well functioning kidneys and must be hydrated to process protein metabolic waste. Dehydrated animals are in trouble for many reasons. Tom's point exactly. For me clover,Medicago, and vetches are most available in the spring so thats when I can feed them. In the summer I feed the leaves and stems of cow peas (Vigna). When most available I average about 1/3 legumes ( occasionally Half)in their diet. Again the tortoise must not be dehydrated. I agree with your emphasis on a Balanced Diet. However, I celebrate and appreciate the intelligent opinions of people who have raised tortoises over a long time. Such people as Tom, Ed and many others. Don't under estimate life experience in more things then tortoise keeping.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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Yeah. I went to recent talk by a globally well recognized Vet. Two things.

1) Tortoises that go through his clinical are all sampled for blood and what it can tell you, Universally tortoises show too LOW a component level indicating protein in the diet. He said people withhold protein to the point most tortoises in captivity that he sees have chronic low protein.

2) There is not one single case reported in the literature or from a study not published that indicates any tortoise has had a "calcium" stone due to oxalates. Not one ever. NOT ONE. Lizards, none tortoise chelonians are not in this census.

Another thing, spinach is okay within a well balanced diet, no need to exclude it.

Also, yet another thing. No tortoise has ever been cited in any lit with a goiter. So what more does that tell us? The one article that suggested goiter could be a thing, the author would withdraw the article if he could. It's the thymus that gets swollen. Anyhow, people who literally have spent their considerable life are saying this, I'm believing it. When people who study these things can point to the error, I'll re-visit the concern.

Airplane mechanics are not reptile vets, airplane mechanics are not even globally recognized reptile medicine practitioners.

I guess I ought to mention this vet has had and bred pet tortoises for 30 years.
 

Lincoln Michal

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Will, I take your post seriously. Bladder stones are common dangerous problems in tortoises. I looked into your statement about Oxalates in stones. Stones in tortoises seem to be made mainly of Calcium urate/ Potassium urate either/ or as the Vet says. Regular warm bathes make tortoises empty their bladders so maybe less chance of stones. I hear the tortoise bladder is where water is reabsorbed so the urine is concentrated.
 
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