can I use coco coir for egg laying substrate?

[Stoneman]

I have a large female indian star that was walking around different than how she normally does, so I put an area in that is about 5 to 6 inches deep of damp coco coir. Would she lay eggs in that, or do I need to change the material? I do not want to use soil because I do not want to risk parasites.

 

[PA2019]

Just a thought, but have you considered taking dirt and baking it? Obviously an autoclave isn't feasible, but baking the dirt on a cookie sheet at 450 for several hours might take care of most of the parasite concerns.

 

[wellington]

Just a thought, but have you considered taking dirt and baking it? Obviously an autoclave isn't feasible, but baking the dirt on a cookie sheet at 450 for several hours might take care of most of the parasite concerns.

At 450 you might start a fire. It should be 200-250 for 2-4 hours.

 

[Tom]

I have a large female indian star that was walking around different than how she normally does, so I put an area in that is about 5 to 6 inches deep of damp coco coir. Would she lay eggs in that, or do I need to change the material? I do not want to use soil because I do not want to risk parasites.

Is an outdoor enclosure on real dirt not possible?
Soil doesn't contain tortoise parasites, but soil is a problem because you can't know what composted material it is made of.
I've never used an indoor nesting box, so I don't know if coir will work. Seems like you might need something that will hold its shape better. And You'll need at least 12". 5 or 6" is not deep enough.

 

[PA2019]

At 450 you might start a fire. It should be 200-250 for 2-4 hours.

Good point! I was thinking my local dirt, which is mostly sand

 

[Stoneman]

Is an outdoor enclosure on real dirt not possible?
Soil doesn't contain tortoise parasites, but soil is a problem because you can't know what composted material it is made of.
I've never used an indoor nesting box, so I don't know if coir will work. Seems like you might need something that will hold its shape better. And You'll need at least 12". 5 or 6" is not deep enough.

Thank you Tom. I had figured pinworms and others might end up in there. I can shape and form the coir if there is enough moisture. But if it dries it turns to dust. When moist, a tortoise could excavate a hole and cover it back up. I am just not sure if there was some reason it would be opposed to it. I have thought about adding sand and orchid bark to give it a more varied consistency. What do you think about that? I am worried about bacteria, viruses, and mold. I am actually terrified of all of these things with my tortoises. I had been getting mold on and underneath the terra cotta feed and water bowls. Then I started bleaching them, and using small hand towels underneath them, and that seems to absorb the moisture.

I am not sure what I would do to make it a foot deep. The box she is in is about 4x6. There are heat plates, lights, and food bowls that take up most of the ground. I guess I could create an elevated ramp. I really want these guys to start breeding. I have a young male that is 4.5" and is about 350 grams, and I have a larger male who I think is pretty much done growing at about 5.5" and 650 grams. They were frisky when I first got them last year, but they seem to have tamed out a lot and never try to go at it. Do you think switching them out every month would do the trick?

 

[Stoneman]

Just a thought, but have you considered taking dirt and baking it? Obviously an autoclave isn't feasible, but baking the dirt on a cookie sheet at 450 for several hours might take care of most of the parasite concerns.

I think my sister in law would have my head. So I would like to try other alternatives. I really do not like the idea of having bugs and viruses and bacteria and mold and other stuff I do not have control over affecting their habitat. Have you heard of other alternatives to soil that would work?

 

[Stoneman]

Good point! I was thinking my local dirt, which is mostly sand

Does mosty sand seem to work? I have wanted to add some play sand to cut down on dust but give the nesting box a more diverse material than just coco coir. I also like the idea of adding small orchid bark in there as well. Any ideas?

 

[PA2019]

Does mosty sand seem to work? I have wanted to add some play sand to cut down on dust but give the nesting box a more diverse material than just coco coir. I also like the idea of adding small orchid bark in there as well. Any ideas?

So sand is a tricky subject because there are two differing views on using it and proponents on both sides are very experienced and respected.

@Tom seems to not like sand as substrate, and even mentioned dangers of my mostly sand substrate in my outdoor pen (I'm in Gainesville, the dirt here is mostly sand)

Then there is Chris Leone, who utilizes sand in conjunction with other elements (granite etc) in both indoor and outdoor setups.
Here is an excerpt from his Kleinmanni caresheet.

"There is an element of worry with a substrate like this because if the granite were ingested often, it absolutely could cause impaction. Long has the story of sand being the culprit of impaction in tortoises but let's face it...sand is 100% natural. It's found in large quantities in Testudo habitats everywhere and definitely in other species' homes. So many keepers fear sand as "certain death" for their captives but the truth is that when used correctly, it does not pose much of a threat. Here in the southern coastal pine barrens of New Jersey, most of our Testudo tortoises live outdoors on the natural sandy ground. They eat off it, graze off it, dig in it, nest in it and sleep in it. Success couldn't possibly be any better. Sometimes subjecting an indoor tortoise to nothing but play sand can have ill effects if ingested in large amounts but never forget what nature is like for these animals."

One option would probably be cococoir with larger orchid chips on top as an overall substrate in the pen, and then a 12"x12" square cut out of the floor, with a deeper plastic container (12-18" deep) sunk into it with a soil/sand/granite mixture that would provide the needed depth for egg laying. You could hang a heat lamp over the spot to make the temp ideal and increase the chance your female would choose that spot.

IMO, if the goal is breeding then I would seriously reconsider how you are housing the adults. If I remember correctly, you had no plants in the enclosure, were using yoga mats on the floor, and seemed to be housing multiple adults in the same 6'x4' pen. I really feel that investing in a setup that is more naturalistic, and with separation at least between males and females, would increase the odds of successful breeding.

 

[Melis]

I was about to post something similar to PA2019. I was surprised when I read this because I would have imagined your torts to be too stressed due to the housing conditions to mate. Are they still housed inside in the kiddie pools with yoga mats?

 

[Stoneman]

She laid her eggs! Thank you for the help everyone!

 

[Stoneman]

I have the three of breeding age on a substrate that is partially faux grass, and they can climb upside down bowls to get into the coco-coir and play sand area. There is a humid hide, two lights, and two heated areas, so they have space to move around and do different things. I guess it seems to be working since she just gave me these eggs today. The kiddie pool was only there to segregate, and is no longer in use. The others are in 5×2.5 troughs. They get daily exercise in their bath/treadmill, and have light, food, access to humid hide, and a balanced diet. I agree that more space would be preferrable, but based on the circumstances I feel this is adequate for now, even though I am aware Melis you consider this tortoise abuse. The yoga mats are easy to clean, so it works for me. Only the youngest two and one juvenile female who has tried to eat the fake grass are on the yoga mats now. I consider more common substrates to be dangerous to their health, and it seems to be working okay. As PA2019 stated, sand can be dangerous for their health. Natural does not always equate preferential or safe.

 

[Stoneman]

I am planning on building closed chambers for all of them as soon as possible and upgrading space and lighting. However, I will still probably stick with artificial flooring, especially for the ones who do not need to building nests for clutches.

 

[PA2019]

I am planning on building closed chambers for all of them as soon as possible and upgrading space and lighting. However, I will still probably stick with artificial flooring, especially for the ones who do not need to building nests for clutches.

Congrats on the eggs, update us on their development!