Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

Status
Not open for further replies.

northernturtleman

New Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Messages
31
Location (City and/or State)
allegan MI
Okay everybody, I think we need to tone it down, everybody has their own opinion. Although I wouldn’t recommend co-habiting sullys and leopards, they are his and thats how he wishes to raise them good or bad. It seems that both sides have a good understanding of where they are coming from. Both have experience and I respect that.. Enough said.
 

tortoisetime565

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
1,702
Location (City and/or State)
Oklahoma
ImageUploadedByTortForum1391175298.232620.jpg

My sully hasn't ever shown any aggression. BUT she will be housed alone outside even as a jeuv. I'm not risking it. This time next year she will have doubled the size of my red foots. They are only together on their balcony. Which is access to an even warmer place of basking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Saleama

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
1,501
Location (City and/or State)
Irving Texas
When I first got miine I had no choice but to house them together and as I had not found this forum yet, I thought it was not an issue. I had 4 baby sullys and 2 baby leos in a 4 x 6 open crate on a hay and mulch substrate. Boy did that change fast. Anyway, while they were 25 - 40 grams I didn't see much of an issue. Everyone was eating and looking good. Then I noticed something. The sullys were getting these funny lines and the leos were not? After a month it was pretty clear that the sullys were growing pretty fast ( I posted a thread worried about them not gaining weight and had changed their diet according to the responses) while the leos were not. My solution was to get 2 more leos and another crate. The leos are now sprouting like weeds and the sullys are going to outgrow their crate by summer. Everyone seems happier. I'm pretty sure I could have kept them together a little longer with no real long lasting issues as they are all only about 8 months old now, but why would I want to risk something, anything happening? I still use a single outdoor playpen and they all go in when I am available to watch them, but they get seperate outdoor time in their respective outside crates weather permitting. I know in the future they will probably cross pathes often like in family photos, but they will not live in the same pen.
 

tortoisetime565

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
1,702
Location (City and/or State)
Oklahoma
Same here. I had no choice but to house mine together. They all did fine. But my Russians were smaller and I could tell they felt like the minority. They stay secluded and do theirs and they are much happier alone. My sulcata loves being able to see my redfoots but she does like her alone time. I love my torts and only want what is best for them. I do not think that them being able to mingle or see each other will be bad but I will for sure house them alone. :) their outside enclosures will be different as well. I want them to each have their own so they can have the correct substrate and plants and shading. I had a baby Leo but I'm sorry to say it did not go well. That is why I only buy Jeuvs. It was about 5 months ago. I don't think I will get another tortoise for a year or so. But I do appreciate everyone's opinions.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
64,318
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
northernturtleman said:
Okay everybody, I think we need to tone it down, everybody has their own opinion. Although I wouldn’t recommend co-habiting sullys and leopards, they are his and thats how he wishes to raise them good or bad. It seems that both sides have a good understanding of where they are coming from. Both have experience and I respect that.. Enough said.

No. I'm afraid its not that simple. Here is why:

If a person follows the advice of the majority of posters here and does not mix species, they will not ever see interspecies aggression problems and their disease risk is greatly reduced. They will also not experience and live with the chronic stress that comes from living with foreign species. In other words, no harm will come to the tortoises if the advice to keep them apart is followed.

On the other hand, if Mick's example is followed, chronic stress, and the potential for disease, parasites and aggression is greatly increased.


Now what must be remembered is that LOTS of people read this stuff. Many times its kids or people that are just starting out in the hobby and have very little background or experience to draw from. When someone with "20 years" experience posts that its fine to mix species and they can't hurt each other and they can't give each other diseases and a simple vet check is all that's needed to guarantee perfect health and compatibility, a new person might take that seriously, follow the example, and end up with sick, injured or dead tortoises. It is my aim to prevent that by giving out accurate factual information based on decades of experience with thousands of tortoises, hundreds of cases and real live medical evidence from tortoise vets and keepers.

Toning it down is not going to help people's tortoises, and helping tortoises is my reason for being here.
 

tortoisetime565

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
1,702
Location (City and/or State)
Oklahoma
I totally agree. I am 17 and I have read a bunch of stuff and heard a lot of bull. The reptile store I got my sulcata from said "humidity is bad for them" and it wasn't until a year later that I heard from people I trust that humidity is infact beneficial for them. I think that that is what caused the slight pyramiding that she has. I'm trying my hardest to fix her shell and make her cosmetically perfect. But I like her either way. I always click on the person and see how much time they have doesn't on TFO like you, Tom, 5 months of your lifetime has been on tortoise forum. I'm pretty sure I can trust your valuable information. I'm just trying to learn everything I can while I'm young.
 

Mick.Ire

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
151
Hi, it's Mick.Ire here, had to set up another account as I can never log in as Mick.Ire on outside computers if admin could take a look that would be great.

Here is why it's a personal attack as you did it again. " That you don't know this makes me question anything else you assert.".

I was glad to hear you say that these posts are very beneficial to people seeking out information once kept civilized and the personal attacks on someones credibility or intelligence are stopped. Tom I could do it to you but there is nothing to gain.

Before I start, I will ask you Tom to carefully read my posts, take it in, go away and make a cup of coffee or tea for few minutes and think about it. This will eliminate the mistakes you are making interpreting my pretty basic statements. For example, you said " I have a problem with your assertion that a CB tortoise can't have any pathogen that would make another tortoise sick. Blatantly false. Completely ridiculous.", please take the time to go back and read what I actually posted. I said a captive Leopard and captive sulcata.
I have experience with chelonia pathogens wiping out animals, and have personally witnessed a pathogen carried by Indian star tortoises wiping out a group of gila monsters, housed separate, not my personal animals but I was called to consult so believe me I know how lethal these diseases can be.
 

Mick.Ire

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
151
I love the way you to try to discredit my opinion and put me down by using terms such as "keeping a few tortoises in my garden". Grow up, I really thought this was a friendly place, lets keep it that way. My father has been keeping tortoises since he was 12, I'm 30 so to say I've grown up with tortoises is a understatement. We have had all types of species, from custom seizures to our own collection so have experienced very sick animals through out the years. Some made it some didn't.

Someone made a comment about my Leopards Shells and it's a great point and example of how we live and learn and increase our knowledge. When we got the large female pictured in 1990 the only literature available to us was to keep the tortoises in dry arid conditions, diet was all over the place and UV non existent. This is what we did and as a result she became quite pyramided. I am the first one to fully admit that we did it all wrong knowing what we know now. Unfortunately this information was not available to us back then. You will notice that the smaller female in the picture has a better shell but again not perfect. This is because when we got her 5 years later the diet issue had be addressed and we adapted to it. It reflects in the pictures. Unfortunately the humidity and importance of external shell hydration advise did not come until much later.

Because of comments like this "Ireland? Really? Is that a regular hotbed of sulcata and leopard activity and I just don't know about it?" I really don't want to participate in this thread with you anymore. This should not be a contest about who has more tortoises, who's been keeping tortoises longer or where in the world someone lives. I am very comfortable in my knowledge and experience with various species of tortoises, especially the 6 I currently keep. Because of your continuing comments trying to put me down and my knowledge and experience shows me perhaps your insecurities and perhaps your lack of knowledge. Think about it. If I'm wrong I'm sorry.

getting eggs from a leopard tortoise and successfully breeding them are two different things. Did you know you can get eggs from females without males present?
A leopard tortoise that is stressed will stop eating, become reclusive, and will eventually fall quite ill and underweight. They hide this for some time but eventually the symptoms become apparent. This I do have experience with rescuing a few young leopard tortoises over the years. Thankfully I got them to bounce back.

I asked you for published papers and scientific research which you have not provided and never will because they don't exist, because it's not an issue with captive sulcatas and leopards. There are no harmful pathogens one can spread to the other. Remember the key word here Tom, CAPTIVE.

Please anyone reading this, because I won't be entertaining anything Tom replies on this thread unless he stops his attacks and immature attitude of mine is bigger than yours, please feel free to PM me for further information on housing the magnificent species of Leopard and Sulcata tortoises together.

Regards Mick Del, formerly Mick.Ire. :)
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
344
Putting aside for a moment issues of temperament or differences in husbandry, potential for transmission of novel disease between different species is commonly brought up as a reason for segregating species. Has this happened or is this a 'common knowledge' situation? The most prevalent diseases seem to be the INC, herpes, mycoplasma, universally-tragic type, which if true, would ague against mixing individuals from any different populations, regardless of species. No agenda here, just curious what folks have experienced.
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
344
" please feel free to PM me for further information on housing the magnificent species of Leopard and Sulcata tortoises together.

Regards Mick Del, formerly Mick.Ire. :)"

Hi Mick

Looks like we were posting simultaneously. In lieu of PMing, would you consider starting a thread detailing how you raise sulcatta in what I assume is predominately indoor housing? Not a lot of info on that in the hotbed that is California. Thanks
 

TiyahLove

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
146
Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

Mick.Del said:
I love the way you to try to discredit my opinion and put me down by using terms such as "keeping a few tortoises in my garden". Grow up, I really thought this was a friendly place, lets keep it that way. My father has been keeping tortoises since he was 12, I'm 30 so to say I've grown up with tortoises is a understatement. We have had all types of species, from custom seizures to our own collection so have experienced very sick animals through out the years. Some made it some didn't.

Someone made a comment about my Leopards Shells and it's a great point and example of how we live and learn and increase our knowledge. When we got the large female pictured in 1990 the only literature available to us was to keep the tortoises in dry arid conditions, diet was all over the place and UV non existent. This is what we did and as a result she became quite pyramided. I am the first one to fully admit that we did it all wrong knowing what we know now. Unfortunately this information was not available to us back then. You will notice that the smaller female in the picture has a better shell but again not perfect. This is because when we got her 5 years later the diet issue had be addressed and we adapted to it. It reflects in the pictures. Unfortunately the humidity and importance of external shell hydration advise did not come until much later.

Because of comments like this "Ireland? Really? Is that a regular hotbed of sulcata and leopard activity and I just don't know about it?" I really don't want to participate in this thread with you anymore. This should not be a contest about who has more tortoises, who's been keeping tortoises longer or where in the world someone lives. I am very comfortable in my knowledge and experience with various species of tortoises, especially the 6 I currently keep. Because of your continuing comments trying to put me down and my knowledge and experience shows me perhaps your insecurities and perhaps your lack of knowledge. Think about it. If I'm wrong I'm sorry.

getting eggs from a leopard tortoise and successfully breeding them are two different things. Did you know you can get eggs from females without males present?
A leopard tortoise that is stressed will stop eating, become reclusive, and will eventually fall quite ill and underweight. They hide this for some time but eventually the symptoms become apparent. This I do have experience with rescuing a few young leopard tortoises over the years. Thankfully I got them to bounce back.

I asked you for published papers and scientific research which you have not provided and never will because they don't exist, because it's not an issue with captive sulcatas and leopards. There are no harmful pathogens one can spread to the other. Remember the key word here Tom, CAPTIVE.

Please anyone reading this, because I won't be entertaining anything Tom replies on this thread unless he stops his attacks and immature attitude of mine is bigger than yours, please feel free to PM me for further information on housing the magnificent species of Leopard and Sulcata tortoises together.

Regards Mick Del, formerly Mick.Ire. :)

You think captive breeds don't carry these harmful pathogens? You can have wild caught parents and hatch CAPTIVE BRED babies. Those babies will carry whatever momma did. And being around momma will introduce these pathogens further.

I have been studying animals my entire life and disease is best prevented by quarantine and seperation.

This is what I have learned from animal psychology. Tortoises are solitary animals. They like to live alone. In the wild they cross paths to breed or to kill over territory, mates, or food. Even though our babies are captive bred you have to remember they carry natural instincts. You may think they aren't "killing machines" but they are. You referring to the Herman tortoises earlier is a way different subject from sulcatas. Hermans may injure each other, but male sulcatas are equip to kill and they will.

You may have breeding leopard tortoises, but they will breed under virtually any circumstances. I live in nc where we get annual snow and it's cold for about 4 months of the year and my good friend has trouble keeping his girls from breeding year round even in 20 degree weather. (He has them in a heated barn with all the fixins, but they venture out in snow all the time because they want to) he even had a rescue that was brought to him with severe metabolic bone disease, deformities in both her hind legs, and she came from a horrible situation. About 4 days after getting her she laid 3 healthy eggs. My point being is they are egg factories that will produce under any circumstances or die trying.



And the comments about you in Ireland is because not many people in Ireland have proper places for tortoises year round. Here we get to -15 sometimes and I have the proper equipment for my animals once they are moved outside. I live on a 10 acre plot of land, with a 6 stall barn, a stall for each individual sulcata and more if I want, already equip with heavy duty Kane heat mats, light fixtures for CHE or a Powersun if they can't go outside for a day or two, hay troughs, and much more for all of their winter needs. I will never have to keep my sulcatas indoors once I feel they are large enough to go outside without becoming somethings meal (of course my watchful eye will be present quite a lot)

And with sulcatas, if I have more than one male I will have to separate all 3 of my babies. The dynamic would be too dangerous and stressful as males fight. It wouldn't even work if I had one male alone and one female and a male. The female would get stressed from constant breeding and most likely die. I wouldn't have known that if I didn't know Tom. Tom has taught me a great deal on sulcatas as well as many others on the forum.
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
344
"You think captive breeds don't carry these harmful pathogens? You can have wild caught parents and hatch CAPTIVE BRED babies. Those babies will carry whatever momma did."

Yikes. That's terrifying. What pathogens are you referring to ? Are they transmitted on the egg or in the egg? Are there tests or cultures available? I have never heard of this so appreciate any information you can provide. Thanks
 

TiyahLove

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
146
Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

zenoandthetortoise said:
"You think captive breeds don't carry these harmful pathogens? You can have wild caught parents and hatch CAPTIVE BRED babies. Those babies will carry whatever momma did."

Yikes. That's terrifying. What pathogens are you referring to ? Are they transmitted on the egg or in the egg? Are there tests or cultures available? I have never heard of this so appreciate any information you can provide. Thanks

I'm referring to babies from that tortoise are likely to be in an environment shared by momma later on. A wild caught mother with anything can transmit it to babies, I mean they did come out of her! Not saying it's 100% but from experience with other reptile species I've seen it happen in several and wipe out entire collections. If momma has anything that can be transmitted to other tortoises I'm sure her babies can get it to. If the babies where to go in a pen where momma has been and eat her fecal matter they are exposed to anything she has, or if it can be transmitted through her eggs (on the shell or the actual embryo)

Not saying it's 100% that it can or can't, just observations from other reptilians and a little deeper thinking on the subject matter.
I'm actually talking to one of my friends that's a vet and figuring more on this.
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,800
Well heck ……dim the lights ….light some candles, a comfy couch and turn on some Barry White and you might get stuck with these ……;)



ha ha ......just trying to ease some tension ....and NO I don't have these any more ....I wish I did ! :D
 

TiyahLove

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
146
Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

N2TORTS said:
Well heck ……dim the lights ….light some candles, a comfy couch and turn on some Barry White and you might get stuck with these ……;)



ha ha ......just trying to ease some tension ....and NO I don't have these any more ....I wish I did ! :D

Those little babies are cuties!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
64,318
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Mick.Del said:
I love the way you to try to discredit my opinion and put me down by using terms such as "keeping a few tortoises in my garden". Grow up, I really thought this was a friendly place, lets keep it that way.

Alright Mick. You are right. Let me tone it down a bit as was already suggested. I mean you no insult, but in all honesty, I don't think I need to discredit your opinion. You think that (correct me if I'm wrong) an adult sulcata couldn't and/or wouldn't kill an adult leopard. No insults, no jabs. But this is just wrong. I've seen it and so have many others. You think that CB sulcata and leopards babies can't or don't carry any potentially harmful pathogens. This just plain and simple not true. They can and they sometimes do. Again, I have seen this first hand. Necropsies have proven it without a doubt. You think that breeding success is a measure of a happy leopard tortoise, and I'm telling you that they will breed, lay fertile eggs and not get egg bound in some very less than ideal conditions. I am very sad to say that I see this one regularly here.

I am sorry for jabbing at your place of residences inhospitably for tortoises in comparison to mine, but I'm looking for a way to explain to myself how someone with 20+ years of sulcata and leopard tortoises doesn't understand some of the most basic (basic to me anyway) things about their nature. It seems like there just might not be all that much experience to be had where you are, vs. some other places in the world. I don't know. Maybe you could explain it and I'll just quit guessing.

I am NOT trying to put you down, but when you say sulcatas don't kill other tortoises, CB sulcatas and leopards can't or don't carry the same pathogens and parasites as every other tortoise, or that leopards are difficult to reproduce, I'm sorry, but it sounds like someone who is lacking in practical experience. My experience has shown all of those things to not be correct. How should I say this in an inoffensive or more tactful way?


Mick.Del said:
Someone made a comment about my Leopards Shells and it's a great point and example of how we live and learn and increase our knowledge. When we got the large female pictured in 1990 the only literature available to us was to keep the tortoises in dry arid conditions, diet was all over the place and UV non existent. This is what we did and as a result she became quite pyramided. I am the first one to fully admit that we did it all wrong knowing what we know now. Unfortunately this information was not available to us back then. You will notice that the smaller female in the picture has a better shell but again not perfect. This is because when we got her 5 years later the diet issue had be addressed and we adapted to it. It reflects in the pictures. Unfortunately the humidity and importance of external shell hydration advise did not come until much later.

On this one we are in the SAME boat my friend. To anyone reading this, if you are looking at a pyramided tortoise that is more than two or three years old, Mick's explanation is exactly why. Very few sulcatas or leopards were raised smooth in years past, including my own. This should not ever count against anyone. We all did our best with the knowledge that was out there. The knowledge was just lacking. That's all there is to it.



Mick.Del said:
Because of comments like this "Ireland? Really? Is that a regular hotbed of sulcata and leopard activity and I just don't know about it?" I really don't want to participate in this thread with you anymore. This should not be a contest about who has more tortoises, who's been keeping tortoises longer or where in the world someone lives. I am very comfortable in my knowledge and experience with various species of tortoises, especially the 6 I currently keep. Because of your continuing comments trying to put me down and my knowledge and experience shows me perhaps your insecurities and perhaps your lack of knowledge. Think about it. If I'm wrong I'm sorry.

Forgive me. I explained this above. Its not a pot shot at you, its my attempt to understand how you don't know the things that I know after all your years of tortoise keeping with these species. I'm not trying to put you down. I apologize if it felt that way.



Mick.Del said:
getting eggs from a leopard tortoise and successfully breeding them are two different things. Did you know you can get eggs from females without males present?
A leopard tortoise that is stressed will stop eating, become reclusive, and will eventually fall quite ill and underweight. They hide this for some time but eventually the symptoms become apparent. This I do have experience with rescuing a few young leopard tortoises over the years. Thankfully I got them to bounce back.

All the people I referred to earlier are getting hatchlings, not just eggs.

A leopard tortoise that is VERY HIGHLY stressed might do all those things, but this is not a "black or white" issue. There are MANY shades of gray in between. Low level chronic stress might not shut them completely down as you suggest, but it might be enough to really slow them down, or to cease breeding and egg laying, or to get them to withhold eggs and become egg bound.


Mick.Del said:
I asked you for published papers and scientific research which you have not provided and never will because they don't exist, because it's not an issue with captive sulcatas and leopards. There are no harmful pathogens one can spread to the other. Remember the key word here Tom, CAPTIVE.

They don't exist because the typical person who buys a $50 sulcata baby is not going to pay $1000 for a necropsy when it dies. To do a scientific study, MANY of these $1000 necropsies would have to be performed. One would also have to necropsy surviving and a-symptomaitc live tortoises to compare and contrast and ascertain exactly where which disease organisms came from. No one who loves tortoises want to intentionally infect healthy babies and then euthanize and dissect the infected and healthy ones. I sure don't, and I wouldn't pay for that. There are enough obvious examples and evidence that this should not be necessary.

I have one of those $1000 necropsy reports and it turns out CB sulcata babies absolutely CAN carry pathogens. I can't imagine what in the world makes you think they can't. In the name of friendliness and courtesy, please explain how you have come to this conclusion, rather than have me speculate anymore.
 

tortoisetime565

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
1,702
Location (City and/or State)
Oklahoma
N2TORTS said:
Well heck ……dim the lights ….light some candles, a comfy couch and turn on some Barry White and you might get stuck with these ……;)



ha ha ......just trying to ease some tension ....and NO I don't have these any more ....I wish I did ! :D

Are those "Leprocatas?" They are very pretty. See guys, one example of success. It still doesn't change my mind about keeping them separate but it is good knowledge.
 

T33's Torts

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2013
Messages
8,062
Location (City and/or State)
Neverland!
I read this thread, stressed out, made a nice cup of tea, came back and reread it. I understand that tom has experience with these tyoes if situations. Now, here's my take. You guys ready? You're both wrong. All due respect, I am relatively new to this forum (8 months) but am no newbie to torts, and I have no intentions to offend either side.
Tom, you have the science and experience backing you up.
Mike, you have personally discovered that there is no (apparent) issue.

Now, what I say is that dont mix my guys. But Mike, you can. But please, please do not encourage it amoung people that dont have this background information. Its important that when doing this you see the potential risk and understand the problems this can cause. Somewhere along here Ireland was brought up. Now, although its a lovely place, its not really known for its torts. I think tom was merely trying to show that he is exposed to more variety and examples. Mike, however, it was way out of line for you to bring up your grandfather's words of encouragement as that has nothing to do with this topic. With this being said, Mike can lean the hard way is he wishes, al long as he doesn't throw newbies under the bus.
 

Mick.Ire

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
151
Thank you for toning it down a bit Tom, this way people get to read a healthy debate and it keeps the drama queens from jumping in for a row.

tffnytorts, what are you taking about my grandfathers words of encouragement, really lost now.

Here's my points and what it all comes down to, again your misquoting me but i should have been clearer, I never said captive sulcatas and leopards don't carry pathogens, most species do, I said there is none one can carry that will harm the other. You seem to think I am a real minority by keeping these species together, trust me there are thousands out there in every country, lets put it out there on this forum and I'll put it out on my tortoise Facebookgroup and another I'm part of all world wide mediums and see, this is what will be asked: those who have kept leopard and sulcatas together, who here has had a leopard or sulcata tortoise die because of a pathogen the other carried? I know the replies will be virtually non existent not because of lack of necropsy reports but because its not a major issue. One does simply not wipe the other out, if it did we'd have a major crises on our hands in the world of captive keeping.

Regarding a sulcata smashing a leopard tortoise open lets do the same experiment as above and see the results. It'll be adult sulcata and adult leopards as that's the way I recommend to keep them, size for size. Because of the numbers of people keeping these together lets see how many have had their Leo's smashed, and the results will again have nothing to do with a vet bill, if its such a huge factor with these killer sulcatas and has happened many times as you state it will reflect in the response. I don't anticipate much though. Regarding a sulcata flipping over a leopard, those of you keeping various species will know, it occurs in nearly all species, there is no difference. It's a risk we take when keeping any tortoises same species or not in groups. If tragedy strikes, it's a bummer but it's not going to happen more often in the sulcata leopard world than it will in the Hermanns or Horsfield world. I actually find males of smaller species like hingebacks and Spurthighs much more aggressive than any male sulcatas I've encountered including our own. These is more than you think being kept in little old Ireland and I know for a fact that Dublin zoo has kept 4males one female together for the last 15 years, no hassle. A good friend of mine also keeps 4 male sulcatas 3 adults, despite the hundreds if not thousands of zoo's that practice keeping sulcatas and leopards together, so these horrific attacks and monsterous acts of violence you reckon occur often are most likely a highly rare occurrence if at all. Most male torts will have some issues with each other, ramming, mounting, limb biting, flipping. It's the leopard tortoises being smashed open I'm talking about here. You make me out to be either ignorant or live a very sheltered life because I don't know about these leopard killing sulcatas and the many deaths that have happened as a result of this, that's not the case at all, my ignorance is because it does not happen as regularly as you say if at all. and I don't want to see pics, just people words will do.

All my 30 odd tortoises are happy and healthy, to those of you saying I will learn my lesson in time, 30 years is a long time, 20 years of leoxsulcata housing is also a long time. I am not the minority here in terms of success, if you choose to keep your sulcatas and leopards together, done right it will work.
As with keeping all tortoise species in groups, there is always a risk to flipping, one may end up under a basking lamp and die of heat exhaustion, this can occur in nearly all species, male vs male, male vs female and female vs female. No more likely to happen with sulcatas.
 

TiyahLove

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
146
Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

Mick.Del said:
Thank you for toning it down a bit Tom, this way people get to read a healthy debate and it keeps the drama queens from jumping in for a row.

tffnytorts, what are you taking about my grandfathers words of encouragement, really lost now.

Here's my points and what it all comes down to, again your misquoting me but i should have been clearer, I never said captive sulcatas and leopards don't carry pathogens, most species do, I said there is none one can carry that will harm the other. You seem to think I am a real minority by keeping these species together, trust me there are thousands out there in every country, lets put it out there on this forum and I'll put it out on my tortoise Facebookgroup and another I'm part of all world wide mediums and see, this is what will be asked: those who have kept leopard and sulcatas together, who here has had a leopard or sulcata tortoise die because of a pathogen the other carried? I know the replies will be virtually non existent not because of lack of necropsy reports but because its not a major issue. One does simply not wipe the other out, if it did we'd have a major crises on our hands in the world of captive keeping.

Regarding a sulcata smashing a leopard tortoise open lets do the same experiment as above and see the results. It'll be adult sulcata and adult leopards as that's the way I recommend to keep them, size for size. Because of the numbers of people keeping these together lets see how many have had their Leo's smashed, and the results will again have nothing to do with a vet bill, if its such a huge factor with these killer sulcatas and has happened many times as you state it will reflect in the response. I don't anticipate much though. Regarding a sulcata flipping over a leopard, those of you keeping various species will know, it occurs in nearly all species, there is no difference. It's a risk we take when keeping any tortoises same species or not in groups. If tragedy strikes, it's a bummer but it's not going to happen more often in the sulcata leopard world than it will in the Hermanns or Horsfield world. I actually find males of smaller species like hingebacks and Spurthighs much more aggressive than any male sulcatas I've encountered including our own. These is more than you think being kept in little old Ireland and I know for a fact that Dublin zoo has kept 4males one female together for the last 15 years, no hassle. A good friend of mine also keeps 4 male sulcatas 3 adults, despite the hundreds if not thousands of zoo's that practice keeping sulcatas and leopards together, so these horrific attacks and monsterous acts of violence you reckon occur often are most likely a highly rare occurrence if at all. Most male torts will have some issues with each other, ramming, mounting, limb biting, flipping. It's the leopard tortoises being smashed open I'm talking about here. You make me out to be either ignorant or live a very sheltered life because I don't know about these leopard killing sulcatas and the many deaths that have happened as a result of this, that's not the case at all, my ignorance is because it does not happen as regularly as you say if at all. and I don't want to see pics, just people words will do.

All my 30 odd tortoises are happy and healthy, to those of you saying I will learn my lesson in time, 30 years is a long time, 20 years of leoxsulcata housing is also a long time. I am not the minority here in terms of success, if you choose to keep your sulcatas and leopards together, done right it will work.
As with keeping all tortoise species in groups, there is always a risk to flipping, one may end up under a basking lamp and die of heat exhaustion, this can occur in nearly all species, male vs male, male vs female and female vs female. No more likely to happen with sulcatas.

You are causing a lot of confusion. A lot of people on here are new tortoise owners trying to find the right way to keep tortoises and a lot of what you are saying is not the best conditions for an animal.

Like I have said before tortoises are solitary animals and they like to be alone. As for keeping males with males vs females with females is a whole different story. Male sulcatas are equip to kill each other and they will. Females on the other hand are generally less agressive than males and do less harm to each other. Either way you should house tortoises alone, if not you should house them in a group of 3 or more. And you should only house one male per enclosure because they will fight over territory, food, and females.

Say you have one male and one female of any tortoise species. The female will get stressed from over breeding and likely kill herself from not eating and the stress of constantly being bred. If you have 2 males and one female the males will constantly breed her and fight over her most likely resulting in the death of one. If you have 1 male and 2 females that is a good mix, girls get a break from constant breeding and the male has no other competition. As always these are solitary animals and if you don't want to spend the money for separate enclosures stick to one and don't mix species. It is not good for the over all health of your animal and I strongly advise against it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

New Posts

Top