Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

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Tom

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There ARE pathogens that one can carry that can harm the other. Ask a tortoise vet in one of the areas like mine where everybody keeps tortoises. You want to see numbers areas like mine and Phoenix and South Florida with have your numbers.

As far as actual deaths of leopards killed by sulcatas, I would expect those numbers to be low too. Most people see what's going on with the leopard either not eating and hiding all the time like you said, or they see the leopard getting knocked around, and they have the sense to separate them. I don't think too many people are just going to watch their tortoise getting knocked around by another and not separate them. Even with that fact, a fair number still get killed every year. Still, do you really think that person whose backyard tortoise brawl ended in the death of their leopard is going to go on the tortoise forum and tell everyone what an ignorant idiot they were and how their leopard or other sulcata is now dead? That just goes against human nature. They do however, some percentage of the time, seek veterinary care for these injured and or dying animals and those are the ones I see and hear about. I have yet to see a single one of those people who want to tell the world about what just happened.

No one is debating that some of the time people put these animals together and get away with it. Sure they do. I've seen plenty of that with a wide variety of results. I think that due to the sheer volume of tortoise people that I know, like vets and other reptile keepers, neighbors, family, friends, etc., I see and hear more of the situations that end badly than you do. I'm not saying that no matter what this will always end in disaster, I'm saying that SOMETIMES it does end in disaster and its a practice that ought to be discouraged by people who care about the welfare of tortoises.
 

N2TORTS

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TiyahLove said:
Like I have said before tortoises are solitary animals and they like to be alone.

Say you have one male and one female of any tortoise species. The female will get stressed from over breeding and likely kill herself from not eating and the stress of constantly being bred. If you have 2 males and one female the males will constantly breed her and fight over her most likely resulting in the death of one.

Sorry.....but this is not true by any means. Your receiving some bad info ....
Now if you can show me long time herds YOU HAVE OWNED say 10-20 years old "kept together" and the babies you have produced...you might have some more backing to your theory.
 

Yvonne G

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I think the lesson to be learned here is that mixing species is not for the beginner tortoise keeper. And when members post that they do it with no repercussions, it gives the beginner the idea that he can do it too.

If you want to mix species and take chances, then do it quietly. Don't encourage new tortoise keepers by saying it is ok to do it. Yes, it may be ok for YOU, but it is not ok for the many new keepers who don't know what to look for.
 

Mick.Ire

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TiyahLove said:
You are causing a lot of confusion. A lot of people on here are new tortoise owners trying to find the right way to keep tortoises and a lot of what you are saying is not the best conditions for an animal.

Like I have said before tortoises are solitary animals and they like to be alone. As for keeping males with males vs females with females is a whole different story. Male sulcatas are equip to kill each other and they will. Females on the other hand are generally less agressive than males and do less harm to each other. Either way you should house tortoises alone, if not you should house them in a group of 3 or more. And you should only house one male per enclosure because they will fight over territory, food, and females.

Say you have one male and one female of any tortoise species. The female will get stressed from over breeding and likely kill herself from not eating and the stress of constantly being bred. If you have 2 males and one female the males will constantly breed her and fight over her most likely resulting in the death of one. If you have 1 male and 2 females that is a good mix, girls get a break from constant breeding and the male has no other competition. As always these are solitary animals and if you don't want to spend the money for separate enclosures stick to one and don't mix species. It is not good for the over all health of your animal and I strongly advise against it.


I understand what your saying and agree somewhat. All male tortoises are equipped to kill, just because male sulcatas have large gulars doesn't make them more efficient killers than a male Mediterranean tortoise. They all have the capabilities. It's as likely for a male sulcata to flip a female when pursuing her in passion :) as it is for a male to flip a male.
But I do agree with your method of housing them, and the numbers you recommend, it's a practice I follow with most my species, my kinixys group is 1 male 5 females. (you wanna talk about tortoise aggression, try breeding K.B.Nogueyi, hatchlings are fierce.) My T.H.H 1 male, 3 females, my pancakes 3 females, working on sourcing a male, so I'm used to having separate set ups and enclosures, I have a young yellowfoot on it's own plus an Indian star. (indian stars being one of the few species where males can be housed together without complication).
My problem is, you keep saying tortoises are solitary animals in the wild, that is 100% correct for the most part, I've read of colony's of Pancakes being found together in kopjes but this is from necessity for this species, not a social activity so your right. But these animals are not in the Wild, we have them in our care, are you saying every tortoise should be housed individually?? because you can't keep saying they are solitary animals in the wild and if you don't have space for separate enclosures just keep one species and then recommend to keep in groups of 1.3. If you want to take the high ground then do, but make up your mind. Your talking about me confusing people, it's the other way around in my eyes.


Tom said:
There ARE pathogens that one can carry that can harm the other. Ask a tortoise vet in one of the areas like mine where everybody keeps tortoises. You want to see numbers areas like mine and Phoenix and South Florida with have your numbers.

As far as actual deaths of leopards killed by sulcatas, I would expect those numbers to be low too. Most people see what's going on with the leopard either not eating and hiding all the time like you said, or they see the leopard getting knocked around, and they have the sense to separate them. I don't think too many people are just going to watch their tortoise getting knocked around by another and not separate them. Even with that fact, a fair number still get killed every year. Still, do you really think that person whose backyard tortoise brawl ended in the death of their leopard is going to go on the tortoise forum and tell everyone what an ignorant idiot they were and how their leopard or other sulcata is now dead? That just goes against human nature. They do however, some percentage of the time, seek veterinary care for these injured and or dying animals and those are the ones I see and hear about. I have yet to see a single one of those people who want to tell the world about what just happened.

No one is debating that some of the time people put these animals together and get away with it. Sure they do. I've seen plenty of that with a wide variety of results. I think that due to the sheer volume of tortoise people that I know, like vets and other reptile keepers, neighbors, family, friends, etc., I see and hear more of the situations that end badly than you do. I'm not saying that no matter what this will always end in disaster, I'm saying that SOMETIMES it does end in disaster and its a practice that ought to be discouraged by people who care about the welfare of tortoises.

There are no pathogens a leopard or sulcata can harbour that will kill a leopard or sulcata. These are not special tortoises, I wan't to clarify my first statement, there are no pathogens that only sulcata's carry that could kill a leopard and vice versa. It's as dangerous introducing unknown same species tortoises together as it is a leoxsulcata. Every captive tortoise in the world could harbour some hidden pathogen that might lie dormant in them and be fatal to it's enclosure mate of the same species. It's more likely for your Leopard or Sulcata to catch something from the wild weeds we feed or your dog or cat feces than it is from each other. What I mean is, the chelonia pathogen that wiped out the gila monsters I mentioned earlier on had a name, I will find out what this name is for you, I can't remember right now but have it somewhere. Please find out for me the name of the pathogen that so commonly wipes out sulcata and leopard tortoises and that is only harboured in either species making it so dangerous to house them together. While tortoises may harbour pathogens specific to them there is none a sulcata can EXCLUSIVILY carry, that is harmless to every other sulcata in the world and yet kill a leopard and vice versa, if I'm wrong, Tom call your vet, get the name of it for me. I know it doesn't exist. A sulcata could harbour a pathogen that a Spurthigh could also harbour. If spread to another sulcata it could kill it. Same species yet nothing wrong keeping them together, remember we are talking about Captive animals here.

For people following this thread, please notice how we have come from mass leopard and sulcata deaths on page one (and my ignorance for not knowing about such a massacre) and the many many occasions leopards have been smashed open like a can of beans to where we are now, the number of incidents is low and my vet told me of some cases.

For new owners who consider keeping them together this thread is a valuable source.
 

TiyahLove

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Re: RE: Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

N2TORTS said:
TiyahLove said:
Like I have said before tortoises are solitary animals and they like to be alone.

Say you have one male and one female of any tortoise species. The female will get stressed from over breeding and likely kill herself from not eating and the stress of constantly being bred. If you have 2 males and one female the males will constantly breed her and fight over her most likely resulting in the death of one.

Sorry.....but this is not true by any means. Your receiving some bad info ....
Now if you can show me long time herds YOU HAVE OWNED say 10-20 years old "kept together" and the babies you have produced...you might have some more backing to your theory.

This is just from what I have heard from a few people keeping sulcata groups. Not saying it's 100%, but in general it's better than keeping 2 or more males in the same pen or one male and one female together constantly. They are solitary animals, but if keeping more than one in a group I would say one male to several females is probably the best way to do it IF keeping them in groups. I have 3 babies, but I don't keep them in a group. I don't want anyone with nipped tails or severe injury when they get larger.


Mick.Ire said:
TiyahLove said:
You are causing a lot of confusion. A lot of people on here are new tortoise owners trying to find the right way to keep tortoises and a lot of what you are saying is not the best conditions for an animal.

Like I have said before tortoises are solitary animals and they like to be alone. As for keeping males with males vs females with females is a whole different story. Male sulcatas are equip to kill each other and they will. Females on the other hand are generally less agressive than males and do less harm to each other. Either way you should house tortoises alone, if not you should house them in a group of 3 or more. And you should only house one male per enclosure because they will fight over territory, food, and females.

Say you have one male and one female of any tortoise species. The female will get stressed from over breeding and likely kill herself from not eating and the stress of constantly being bred. If you have 2 males and one female the males will constantly breed her and fight over her most likely resulting in the death of one. If you have 1 male and 2 females that is a good mix, girls get a break from constant breeding and the male has no other competition. As always these are solitary animals and if you don't want to spend the money for separate enclosures stick to one and don't mix species. It is not good for the over all health of your animal and I strongly advise against it.


I understand what your saying and agree somewhat. All male tortoises are equipped to kill, just because male sulcatas have large gulars doesn't make them more efficient killers than a male Mediterranean tortoise. They all have the capabilities. It's as likely for a male sulcata to flip a female when pursuing her in passion :) as it is for a male to flip a male.
But I do agree with your method of housing them, and the numbers you recommend, it's a practice I follow with most my species, my kinixys group is 1 male 5 females. (you wanna talk about tortoise aggression, try breeding K.B.Nogueyi, hatchlings are fierce.) My T.H.H 1 male, 3 females, my pancakes 3 females, working on sourcing a male, so I'm used to having separate set ups and enclosures, I have a young yellowfoot on it's own plus an Indian star. (indian stars being one of the few species where males can be housed together without complication).
My problem is, you keep saying tortoises are solitary animals in the wild, that is 100% correct for the most part, I've read of colony's of Pancakes being found together in kopjes but this is from necessity for this species, not a social activity so your right. But these animals are not in the Wild, we have them in our care, are you saying every tortoise should be housed individually?? because you can't keep saying they are solitary animals in the wild and if you don't have space for separate enclosures just keep one species and then recommend to keep in groups of 1.3. If you want to take the high ground then do, but make up your mind. Your talking about me confusing people, it's the other way around in my eyes.


Tom said:
There ARE pathogens that one can carry that can harm the other. Ask a tortoise vet in one of the areas like mine where everybody keeps tortoises. You want to see numbers areas like mine and Phoenix and South Florida with have your numbers.

As far as actual deaths of leopards killed by sulcatas, I would expect those numbers to be low too. Most people see what's going on with the leopard either not eating and hiding all the time like you said, or they see the leopard getting knocked around, and they have the sense to separate them. I don't think too many people are just going to watch their tortoise getting knocked around by another and not separate them. Even with that fact, a fair number still get killed every year. Still, do you really think that person whose backyard tortoise brawl ended in the death of their leopard is going to go on the tortoise forum and tell everyone what an ignorant idiot they were and how their leopard or other sulcata is now dead? That just goes against human nature. They do however, some percentage of the time, seek veterinary care for these injured and or dying animals and those are the ones I see and hear about. I have yet to see a single one of those people who want to tell the world about what just happened.

No one is debating that some of the time people put these animals together and get away with it. Sure they do. I've seen plenty of that with a wide variety of results. I think that due to the sheer volume of tortoise people that I know, like vets and other reptile keepers, neighbors, family, friends, etc., I see and hear more of the situations that end badly than you do. I'm not saying that no matter what this will always end in disaster, I'm saying that SOMETIMES it does end in disaster and its a practice that ought to be discouraged by people who care about the welfare of tortoises.

There are no pathogens a leopard or sulcata can harbour that will kill a leopard or sulcata. These are not special tortoises, I wan't to clarify my first statement, there are no pathogens that only sulcata's carry that could kill a leopard and vice versa. It's as dangerous introducing unknown same species tortoises together as it is a leoxsulcata. Every captive tortoise in the world could harbour some hidden pathogen that might lie dormant in them and be fatal to it's enclosure mate of the same species. It's more likely for your Leopard or Sulcata to catch something from the wild weeds we feed or your dog or cat feces than it is from each other. What I mean is, the chelonia pathogen that wiped out the gila monsters I mentioned earlier on had a name, I will find out what this name is for you, I can't remember right now but have it somewhere. Please find out for me the name of the pathogen that so commonly wipes out sulcata and leopard tortoises and that is only harboured in either species making it so dangerous to house them together. While tortoises may harbour pathogens specific to them there is none a sulcata can EXCLUSIVILY carry, that is harmless to every other sulcata in the world and yet kill a leopard and vice versa, if I'm wrong, Tom call your vet, get the name of it for me. I know it doesn't exist. A sulcata could harbour a pathogen that a Spurthigh could also harbour. If spread to another sulcata it could kill it. Same species yet nothing wrong keeping them together, remember we are talking about Captive animals here.

For people following this thread, please notice how we have come from mass leopard and sulcata deaths on page one (and my ignorance for not knowing about such a massacre) and the many many occasions leopards have been smashed open like a can of beans to where we are now, the number of incidents is low and my vet told me of some cases.

For new owners who consider keeping them together this thread is a valuable source.



I strongly advise/suggest keeping them solitary because it is their natural way of being. Yes we may keep them in captivity, but they still have the same natural instincts of a wild sulcata.
Referring to the groups is for the people that don't have the space or money to house a tortoise by itself. IF you had to house them together those are the numbers I've heard the most frequent from several people for housing multiples. Do I agree with it? Not really, the ratio between males and females may keep injury to a lesser status so it's better than several males and one female. I think we should replicate their natural environment as much as possible because it is what is healthiest for them.
My thinking is, if you don't have the money or space to keep them separated you should stick to one tortoise.
 

FLINTUS

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My personal opinion is that(most, unless in extreme circumstances) species should not be mixed. However, Leopards and Sulcatas are very similar in care and ranges, and if they are CB and never exposed to WC ones, and you can stop the cross breeding of two species, then I believe it is possible. As said, a lot of zoos exhibit mixed species displays, and I've seen full grown Aldabra herds not harm Leopards and Radiateds-not recommending this at all, they are too far away in terms of ranges. On yellow foots and red foots I have to disagree, as the latter is more a savannah tortoise.

Mick.Ire said:
You seem to think I am a real minority by keeping these species together, trust me there are thousands out there in every country, lets put it out there on this forum and I'll put it out on my tortoise Facebookgroup and another I'm part of all world wide mediums and see, this is what will be asked: those who have kept leopard and sulcatas together, who here has had a leopard or sulcata tortoise die because of a pathogen the other carried? I know the replies will be virtually non existent not because of lack of necropsy reports but because its not a major issue. One does simply not wipe the other out, if it did we'd have a major crises on our hands in the world of captive keeping.
These is more than you think being kept in little old Ireland and I know for a fact that Dublin zoo has kept 4males one female together for the last 15 years, no hassle.
This one of the problems with this forum. Some users on here seem to think the US is way ahead in reptile care compared to everywhere else. It is simply not true. Many, many tortoises are kept in the UK and Ireland. Tom, how many people in California-larger than the British Isles- have bred kinixys nogueyi? Mick has, and about 10 others over the past few years in the UK and Ireland. You guys still can't figure out how to breed Russians, we are over run with them. And then just looking at welfare. You are still importing hermanni, graeca, etc. In Europe we are not. The UK is actually not that good compared to some European nations, Germany has some equipment that most of us could only dream of.
 

crice

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I've been reading this for 45mins... Everyone keeps repeating them selves.. It's prolly not a good idea to mix but everyone one always says "we'll if blah blah blah" some one said a CB is born from a WC adult... Not true. CBS can grow up and breed... Not in this dumbass argument because to be honest it's seeming like who ever types the most wins... SMH, just separate them you'll be fine. That's something someone new at keeping tortoises can tell you... If half of these people have "seen" sulcatas flip each other and always turns out lethal... If you saw it with your own eyes why didn't you flip your sulcata back over? Tortoises commit suicide, may flip them selves.. If I seen a tort get flipped I would flip it back over.. That's #1 rule, if not you shouldn't let "nature take it's course"... Again not taking sides just think anything is possibile. YET, not one of you with your 20+ experience said about keeping babies together.. Every post was about ADULTS. Get off this forum if you're talking to eachother the way you do. Pathogens are carried, but carried by everything!!! That's what immune systems are for??? No need to send a 4 paragraph reply, you look foolish.
 

Mick.Del

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[split] Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?(Mods plz respond)

no 4 paragraph reply Crice but a short one for you.

If you spent 45mins reading this thread, you should have taken perhaps the full hour, because in my first post I did state about young sulcatas and leopards being housed together, I said it doesn't matter once the tortoises are size for size. Did you miss that bit? The reason we're focusing on adults, perhaps you missed that point also, is because of the claims the damage an adult sulcata can do to a adult leopard on a regular basis.
You make think this is a dumbass argument, but in the tortoise world keeping sulcatas and leopards together is a common practice making this thread all the more important and informative, I take my oppositions points on board as I hope they do mine.

Regards Mick.
 

TiyahLove

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Mike, I feel your last statement of "go back to the kiddy stuff" was quite rude.
 

Tom

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FLINTUS said:
This one of the problems with this forum. Some users on here seem to think the US is way ahead in reptile care compared to everywhere else. It is simply not true. Many, many tortoises are kept in the UK and Ireland. Tom, how many people in California-larger than the British Isles- have bred kinixys nogueyi? Mick has, and about 10 others over the past few years in the UK and Ireland. You guys still can't figure out how to breed Russians, we are over run with them. And then just looking at welfare. You are still importing hermanni, graeca, etc. In Europe we are not. The UK is actually not that good compared to some European nations, Germany has some equipment that most of us could only dream of.

I don't know which users you are referring to, but I'm not one of them. I don't think the US is ahead in anything other than the sheer numbers of animals kept due to our conducive climate. It is in fact because Americans in general are so BEHIND the curve that I spend so much time on all the threads I make like "The End of Pyramiding" for just one example.

I have no idea how many people have bred any of the Kinixys. Its not a species that interests me and my climate is not suitable for them either. So unlike sulcatas or leopards, I'm not tripping on Kinixys every time I turn around. True that Russian breeding does seem to be an enigma for some here, but I think we turn out quite a few despite that. I had no problem putting together a herd of 20 Russian hatchlings with a few phone calls and PMs. We are not importing hermanni or gracea anymore. That abruptly came to a halt now that our wildlife agencies and law making bodies are being run by animal rightists.

I can't comment on what equipment is available in Germany, but I can tell you that here, where I live, I have no need of any of it. Likewise I can tell you that given the opportunity some sulcatas will kill other sulcatas or leopards and sulcatas are capable of carrying pathogens that can infect other sulcatas or leopards.


crice said:
If half of these people have "seen" sulcatas flip each other and always turns out lethal... If you saw it with your own eyes why didn't you flip your sulcata back over?

Man... Why didn't I think of that? Wow, I have to get busy spreading the word. Crice says to just flip them back over. Problem solved. Thanks for the excellent input.
 

tortoisetime565

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Mick, you are obliviously so oblivious to the conundrum of airborn pathogens. They are there. They will be there. You can't mix a king cobra with a tiny corn snake. It's simple. I simply asked the question for my benefit and for new peoples benefit. Your argument has gotten out of hand. I feel bad for. As well as your torts. Congrats on having a successful leopard and sulcata mix. My redfoots and sulcatas are fine when mingled. But they are only together for 30-45 mins for soakings ever other day. I don't understand why you keep saying that a CB tortoise can't carry pathogens. It's in them. Every CB tortoise has a little bit of Wild tortoise in them. The first tortoise to ever breed was not in captivity. So in the sense that all tortoises are linked by thousands of years shows that every tortoise is going to have something. I was in between sides at the beginning but now you are being just plain ignorant. I'm sorry, burin with Tom on this one.
 

FLINTUS

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Tom said:
FLINTUS said:
This one of the problems with this forum. Some users on here seem to think the US is way ahead in reptile care compared to everywhere else. It is simply not true. Many, many tortoises are kept in the UK and Ireland. Tom, how many people in California-larger than the British Isles- have bred kinixys nogueyi? Mick has, and about 10 others over the past few years in the UK and Ireland. You guys still can't figure out how to breed Russians, we are over run with them. And then just looking at welfare. You are still importing hermanni, graeca, etc. In Europe we are not. The UK is actually not that good compared to some European nations, Germany has some equipment that most of us could only dream of.

I don't know which users you are referring to, but I'm not one of them. I don't think the US is ahead in anything other than the sheer numbers of animals kept due to our conducive climate. It is in fact because Americans in general are so BEHIND the curve that I spend so much time on all the threads I make like "The End of Pyramiding" for just one example.

I have no idea how many people have bred any of the Kinixys. Its not a species that interests me and my climate is not suitable for them either. So unlike sulcatas or leopards, I'm not tripping on Kinixys every time I turn around. True that Russian breeding does seem to be an enigma for some here, but I think we turn out quite a few despite that. I had no problem putting together a herd of 20 Russian hatchlings with a few phone calls and PMs. We are not importing hermanni or gracea anymore. That abruptly came to a halt now that our wildlife agencies and law making bodies are being run by animal rightists.

I can't comment on what equipment is available in Germany, but I can tell you that here, where I live, I have no need of any of it. Likewise I can tell you that given the opportunity some sulcatas will kill other sulcatas or leopards and sulcatas are capable of carrying pathogens that can infect other sulcatas or leopards.


crice said:
If half of these people have "seen" sulcatas flip each other and always turns out lethal... If you saw it with your own eyes why didn't you flip your sulcata back over?

Man... Why didn't I think of that? Wow, I have to get busy spreading the word. Crice says to just flip them back over. Problem solved. Thanks for the excellent input.


Not a dig at you Tom, it was more of a general statement as I do feel that some of the users are slightly patronizing towards non-American users. The reason I mentioned you and California was because you mentioned Ireland and Leopards, so it was just for comparative purposes only.
You know I don't approve of mixing species, I've said that many times, but what I want to see is this evidence of killing. I've heard of a few sullies being bullied by other sullies, like most tortoises-although obviously much larger and heavier- but I have never heard of any fatalities.


tortoisetime565 said:
Mick, you are obliviously so oblivious to the conundrum of airborn pathogens. They are there. They will be there. You can't mix a king cobra with a tiny corn snake. It's simple. I simply asked the question for my benefit and for new peoples benefit. Your argument has gotten out of hand. I feel bad for. As well as your torts. Congrats on having a successful leopard and sulcata mix. My redfoots and sulcatas are fine when mingled. But they are only together for 30-45 mins for soakings ever other day. I don't understand why you keep saying that a CB tortoise can't carry pathogens. It's in them. Every CB tortoise has a little bit of Wild tortoise in them. The first tortoise to ever breed was not in captivity. So in the sense that all tortoises are linked by thousands of years shows that every tortoise is going to have something. I was in between sides at the beginning but now you are being just plain ignorant. I'm sorry, burin with Tom on this one.
Just a tad hypocritical. Leopards and sulcatas are some of the more 'acceptable' species to mix, red foots and sulcatas are completely different. I would say you are safer mixing Leopards and Sulcatas all day, than Sulcatas with carbonaria for half an hour. They come from different continents, which means parasites which are immune to will be completely different.
A CB tortoise will most likely carry some sought of pathogens, but Sulcatas and Leopards will be immune to more similar things due to their ranges. Secondly, the way I read your posts, you're referring to pathogens almost like DNA. If a dog gets a tick, that doesn't mean the puppies will have ticks too. As long as the hatchlings are not exposed to the mother/father, then it is unlikely they will have the same parasites as their parents.
Mixing species from the same range generally does not pose much of a risk with pathogens, as Tom said the worry is behavior, and cross-breeding(depending on your view on that).
 

Jacqui

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FLINTUS said:
This one of the problems with this forum. Some users on here seem to think the US is way ahead in reptile care compared to everywhere else. It is simply not true. Many, many tortoises are kept in the UK and Ireland. Tom, how many people in California-larger than the British Isles- have bred kinixys nogueyi?

Of course also keep in mind that keepers in the UK have also the "past few years" been able to get these animals in fairly large numbers which is not true of the US breeders. I also do not think in the past that breeding was considered as important an object as it is these days. I know of atleast five that further back (closer to 20 years ago in CA were indeed breeding these guys). Keep in mind 20 years ago, there wasn't this wonderful thing called the internet to keep in touch and learn about each other, so pretty amazing I even know about these folks and I am sure there are several more.

As to the US being ahead on tortoise care, I don't feel that way. I think different countries around the world have their own people who are ahead of others in their own countries and others, and in different fields of interest dealing with tortoises.
 

Mick.Del

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Flintus makes great points.

It's like this, there is as much risk introducing a leopard tortoise to another leopard tortoise regarding pathogens, absolutely no more of a risk introducing a sulcata to a leopard. Every new tortoise should get vet checked, fecals done and put in quarantine for a period.
As for a sulcata physically killing a leopard of similar size or adult, it's as dangerous keeping any male tortoise with others of the same species or not in any situation.

TiyahLove, where exactly did I say "go back to the kiddy stuff"? If I did I apologise.
 

N2TORTS

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“it's as dangerous keeping any male tortoise with others of the same species or not in any situation.”


This can apply to “many” species of tortoises. But I can confirm you in my own long time Redfoot herd this is not the case. Matter of fact …..It’s the opposite if one seeks to perpetuate breeding. The second male enhances the drive and “ auto- response” as well as sperm count to make sure fertilization is accomplished. Sure there may be bullying times, and perhaps zero tolerance (rare). But if adequate room is provided along with a high ratio of females, there is absolutely no “ near death” experiences. I have kept a solid group for over 10+ years on my “ Cherry” side at the Cove’. It consists of a 3.11 group and most being together for this time….with a few new introductions and I have yet had any problems what- so- ever. Again this is just “MY” experience with my herd.
 

FLINTUS

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N2TORTS said:
“it's as dangerous keeping any male tortoise with others of the same species or not in any situation.”


This can apply to “many” species of tortoises. But I can confirm you in my own long time Redfoot herd this is not the case. Matter of fact …..It’s the opposite if one seeks to perpetuate breeding. The second male enhances the drive and “ auto- response” as well as sperm count to make sure fertilization is accomplished. Sure there may be bullying times, and perhaps zero tolerance (rare). But if adequate room is provided along with a high ratio of females, there is absolutely no “ near death” experiences. I have kept a solid group for over 10+ years on my “ Cherry” side at the Cove’. It consists of a 3.11 group and most being together for this time….with a few new introductions and I have yet had any problems what- so- ever. Again this is just “MY” experience with my herd.
But if there were ever to be social tortoises, red foots have to be a contender for the most social. While I do see a bit of pestering from my male in my k.erosa trio, again they are pretty social. I would say that as a general rule, tortoises further away from rainforest conditions are less likely to be social-see gregarious behavior studies in g.carbonaria.
 

N2TORTS

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agreed..........now What if we throw an "Island Only Species" such as the Galapagos into the equation? I wonder what male / female ratio it holds within a very limited space? Or just the habits within the herd itself.
 

Mick.Del

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N2TORTS said:
“it's as dangerous keeping any male tortoise with others of the same species or not in any situation.”


This can apply to “many” species of tortoises. But I can confirm you in my own long time Redfoot herd this is not the case. Matter of fact …..It’s the opposite if one seeks to perpetuate breeding. The second male enhances the drive and “ auto- response” as well as sperm count to make sure fertilization is accomplished. Sure there may be bullying times, and perhaps zero tolerance (rare). But if adequate room is provided along with a high ratio of females, there is absolutely no “ near death” experiences. I have kept a solid group for over 10+ years on my “ Cherry” side at the Cove’. It consists of a 3.11 group and most being together for this time….with a few new introductions and I have yet had any problems what- so- ever. Again this is just “MY” experience with my herd.


I know what you mean, some species are a lot more social than others. Indian Stars for the most part are very excepting of being housed together. Males can be housed together no hassle. Of course there will always be exceptions to this rule. Redfoots are a lovely species, I'm glad your group is doing well for you. Do you breed?
Very interesting what flintus said about the rainforest vs non-rainforest species. No idea about the Island species either, Aldabras would be good test subjects. :) Perhaps I should get some.
 

Tom

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FLINTUS, I hold you in the highest respect and always enjoy our interactions here on the forum. I love it that you don't just accept things, but you are never rude, inappropriate or out of line. I did mot take your comments personally at all. If a person like me has such strong opinions, I should be able to defend and explain them, and you make me do exactly that sometimes. I have not noticed this patronizing behavior that you speak of, but if ever I seemed guilty of that, I will apologize right now. I don't think Americans have any sort of monopoly on knowledge or experience with much of anything. I have seen dummies and true geniuses both here and abroad, in regards to many subjects. IF I am inclined to judge, I will do it by the individual, not the individuals country. I hope that my intent on my "Ireland" comment was clear, and that is only that sulcata and leopard tortoises are more common in Southern California than they are in Ireland. I meant nothing more than that.

Admittedly, the deaths that you would like evidence of are rare. (A fact that Mick is happily spinning in his favor.) They are rare because people here know NOT to put them together. And if they do put them together they usually have the sense to separate them when one tortoise starts getting knocked around. The point is not how many have actually been killed, the point is that they can and will try to kill each other sometimes if given the chance. Now I have not seen thousands of these cases, but I have seen dozens. I have seen pictures of redfoots, Russians, leopards and other sulcatas that were split open and killed by male sulcatas. We had a thread on this forum not long ago with pictures of a tortoise that had been split open by a big sulcata, and another with shell damage and a crippled leg. In my travels I will try to get pics of these horrible events and post them here. I prefer not to post such gruesomeness on a family oriented forum, but as usual, some people aren't willing to take another persons word for it. Why I, or anyone else would fabricate something like this makes no sense, but I guess that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying that every male sulcata will try to kill every other tortoise on sight. That would be ridiculous. I AM saying that some of the time they will, and putting them together, especially with a smaller and much less aggressive species is taking a big risk, and it shouldn't happen.
 
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