Can leopards and sulcatas be kept together?

[Cowboy_Ken]

Kball, do as you are. Research. Study. Ask questions from those whom you see are respected on this forum. I look forward to the day that I can refer younger newbies to you for advise.

 

[kball]

Thank u but I do have a question for u what should the nighttime temp be for the hatchling tort.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I wouldn't keep the two together. Perhaps it does work for some people but there is still no benefit for the tortoise. In fact, the only benefactor is the keeper, who saves on space.

In my opinion, If you don't have enough space to keep large sulcata and leopard tortoises separate, then don't own them.

I only have one leopard and I feel guilty daily because I can't offer her the climate she needs, let alone the space. She has the run of my entire garden in the summer and I still don't believe that's enough space. I wouldn't even consider getting another tortoise, leopard or otherwise.

 

[Neal]

I wouldn't keep the two together. Perhaps it does work for some people but there is still no benefit for the tortoise. In fact, the only benefactor is the keeper, who saves on space.

In my opinion, If you don't have enough space to keep large sulcata and leopard tortoises separate, then don't own them.

Well said, and I feel the same way on the topic.

I do respect the opinions of those who feel differently than I do though. I'm a skeptic by profession and I try to learn from all sides of these sort of "hot topics" as much as I can. There are plenty of respectful people who do keep them together without issue and I think there is something to be learned from their experiences. Unfortunately, many of these people have been ostracized for sharing their opinions in public, but they can be sought out if one was interested.

Again, I don't recommend doing this because after all I have seen and experienced, I've not been able to conclude that this benefits the tortoises in any way. But I do appreciate both sides of the arguments here.

 

[kball]

That's a good way to put it.

 

[Bronbowie]

without being controversial, there is another way to look at this subject. If talking about wild caught animals I would strongly agree with the above and say absolutely no, but 99.9999999% of the time with these two species this is not the case. So if the animals in question are both captive bred and of a similar size there is no problem what so ever housing them together once both animals are healthy. There is nothing a captive leopard tortoise will catch off a captive sulcata and vice versa that it won't catch out side grazing on grass. There is no harmful pathogens one can carry and make the other ill if captive. All tortoises should be vet checked on purchase and fecal tests carried out.
For the past 20 years we have housed our leopard tortoises with our sulcatas. They were similar size when acquired with the leopards being slightly bigger. Not once was there ever a time when the sulcatas got too big for the leopards. While they did bypass them, there was never an occasion where the sulcatas could cause harm. A adult sulcata will not be able to hurt or kill an adult leopard. Leopard tortoises are also a moderately large species. If cared for correctly a sulcata will never be able to grow to a size to harm a leopard tortoise that was originally a similar size. accelerated growth due to incorrect care which is wrong being the exception.
Our co-habituating the two species is so successful that our leopards are breeding for us and all animals are 100% happy and healthy. We would not breed the sulcatas.
Please note, in my opinion the above only applies to these species and redfoot and yellowfoot tortoises.

here's some pic's of our bunch and some recent babies.

Thanks for your opinion. Your being an experienced keeper of both species, and caring for captive breds, your knowledge is helpful.

 

[wccmog10]

I have a theory that I'd like to throw out there. Could be wrong or it could explain some of this. My theory is climate as it relates to health and behavior. I propose that living outdoors everyday in a warm climate with lots of UV, natural grazing and very large enclosures might encourage more natural behavior than living in small indoor enclosures with artificial lighting and UV most of the year. Let me share an example: In the past I used to rehab a lot of poorly cared for green iguanas. People would buy them as babies at a pet shop, keep them in a small aquarium, feed them lettuce, no UV, and they would get bored with them, or not want to buy a bigger cage as they grew. Most of these animals were dog tame, easy to handle and not aggressive in any way. For those reading this who don't know, this is NOT normal green iguana behavior. Yes some of them can tame down and be quite approachable, but the majority of healthy normal iguanas are fairly skittish and defensive. I would take these malnourished borderline MBD animals and I'd start feeding them well, supplementing their calcium, and most importantly, get them outside in large open cages for sunning daily. Nearly every one of these docile indoor house pets turned into a tail whipping, mouth gaping, mini Godzilla with a vendetta against humans. Some would tame down, but their obvious health and vigor from a good diet, spacious enclosure and exposure to real sunshine had an obvious impact on their behavior and temperament. I have seen the same thing, although admittedly less pronounced, in tortoises. Might this be a factor in our disagreement on the "normal" aggression levels in sulcatas?

I am still reading through this thread- and will make a few posts about some more of the experiences that I have personally had as they relate to the conversation, but I thought I would start with this paragraph here by @Tom. I have had very similar experiences with animals outdoors, with multiple species. Ill start with a monitor lizard- we had this black throat monitor, it was housed inside with UV lighting, heat, etc. Once he got bigger we built him this outdoor enclosure. Within days of being outside (and possible quicker, it wasn't like I was sitting out there with him 24/7), he went from super tame to pretty aggressive. You could still pick him up, but you had to sort of restrain him behind his head. Most of what he was doing was huffing and puffing and putting on a show, but this was nothing like what he usually did while he was being housed inside. Another lizard example, we had a group of beaded lizards. When they are inside they just sort of sit there and don't ever really move. Put them outside and their behavior completely changes. Now in this case they did not seem to get aggressive towards people, but males would do their ritualized male-male combat with each other. Males that had been together inside would suddenly combat each other for a few days, then everything would settle down. The beaded lizards would go and sit in the corner of the enclosure where the sun would shine first. So I would go out first thing (the sun was up, but not shinning into the enclosure yet), and there would be this big pile of lizards all huddled into the same corner waiting on the sun. It was really interesting. Now for some of my tortoises. I have a group of pancake tortoises that I keep in what I call a tortoise table. It is basically a 4ftx4ft enclosure on wheels. During the winter they are inside and all they do is hide all day long in their hides. When I put them outside, all of a sudden they come out. I will see them sitting in the corner of the enclosure that gets sun first, waiting for the sun to hit them. My leopard tortoises- when they are inside for the winter they just don't do to much, they eat, sit under their heat lamps, etc. but as soon as a put them outside their behavior immediately changes. All of a sudden males are mounting the female and everyone is running around checking everything out. Mind you these same tortoises were together all winter long and their was no breeding behavior (at least none that I saw). So- I agree with you Tom, based on my observations, being outside definitely impacts behavior. I also think that it impacts health in a positive way, but I don't really have any numbers to base that comment on- just observations. I have not however taken an otherwise sick animal and put it outside to see it get better, pretty much all the animals that I have were either bought or given to me as healthy individuals.

-Wade

PS. I do not mean that I have never had a sick animal- anyone who says they have never had a sick animal is probably stretching the truth to say the least, I just mean I have not used natural UV to "cure" anyone- Wait- on second thought I have used UV to help an animal that was not doing well. I had an educational eastern screech owl that I was keeping inside. He was a new acquisition so I was training him and getting him used to being around people. His feathers looked deplorable while he was inside- well once I put him outside his feathers improved immensely when he molted the next time. In that situation it is my opinion that the UV helped to "perk him up."

 

[Yvonne G]

this is a very old thread.