Can lots of nutritious food increase clutch size?

[Russian Rehab]

Hello,

I have a FERTILE Musk Turtle who has laid 4 clutches so far (about half way through the season ) and 20 eggs in total. my research indicates both her frequency of laying and her clutch size are above average for musk. The breed is super small even as adults.

She has also been eating ravenously and i have been feeding her as much as she wants as well as supplementing her calcium and various fresh foods ...

Is it possible that her clutches and frequency of laying are bigger and faster because she has all the nutritious food she can want?
I dont want to risk her health by accidentally encouraging her to breed way more than is natural.
any ideas?

 

[Pastel Tortie]

Is she a common musk / stinkpot / Sternotherus odoratus?

I'm curious... What is her current size (SCL) and weight?

I don't think you'd be risking her health by feeding her nutritious foods and all the calcium she wants. On the contrary, it probably gives her more to work with and benefits the health of the eggs (embryos) My understanding is that successive clutches tend to have thinner shells, so the extra calcium probably increases the likelihood of those eggs making it to term.

I am inclined to think that her body would not produce more eggs, or more frequently, than it could handle. If she's in better health to begin with (and while being gravid), her body can probably handle more (clutch size and/or frequency).

If she's noticeably larger than the average female musk turtle, she's in a better reproductive position to begin with.

There are other members on the forum with more experience in breeding turtles, so I will tag them and ask for their assistance.

@cdmay @mark1 @Markw84 @Yvonne G

 

[Russian Rehab]

Is she a common musk / stinkpot / Sternotherus odoratus?

I'm curious... What is her current size (SCL) and weight?

I don't think you'd be risking her health by feeding her nutritious foods and all the calcium she wants. On the contrary, it probably gives her more to work with and benefits the health of the eggs (embryos) My understanding is that successive clutches tend to have thinner shells, so the extra calcium probably increases the likelihood of those eggs making it to term.

I am inclined to think that her body would not produce more eggs, or more frequently, than it could handle. If she's in better health to begin with (and while being gravid), her body can probably handle more (clutch size and/or frequency).

If she's noticeably larger than the average female musk turtle, she's in a better reproductive position to begin with.

There are other members on the forum with more experience in breeding turtles, so I will tag them and ask for their assistance.

@cdmay @mark1 @Markw84 @Yvonne G

Hello! thanks for writing back!

Yes she is a common musk with all the stinky farts that it entails, as is her husband lol

Right before she lays a clutch she usually weighs 216g and after shes reliably losses 16-17 g worth of eggs and ends up a 200g or so.

I tried to get her to swim by a ruler but she was not cooperative lol here is a pic of mom and dad my estimate is that she is between 4.5 and 5 inches shell length but obviously she can reach close to 7 with that crazy long musk turtle neck.

I appreciate the reassurance. I am just shocked at how she laid 5 eggs in the 3rd clutch and 18 days latter laid another 6 eggs ! And they are big eggs to i dont know how she pysicaly fits them in her shell. its crazy
(2nd Picture bellow) of the second and third clutches of this year .

Do you have any experiences with breeding musk ? i have been searching EVERYWHERE for a breeder or vet to get more info on this specific breed.

Untill i hear different im just going to hope that this prolific breeding season is just a sign of a happy healthy turtle.

PS. thanks for the tip on the shells getting thinner. i had forgotten about that and i need to make sure im extra gentile with them.

 

[Moozillion]

Hello! thanks for writing back!

Yes she is a common musk with all the stinky farts that it entails, as is her husband lol

Right before she lays a clutch she usually weighs 216g and after shes reliably losses 16-17 g worth of eggs and ends up a 200g or so.

I tried to get her to swim by a ruler but she was not cooperative lol here is a pic of mom and dad my estimate is that she is between 4.5 and 5 inches shell length but obviously she can reach close to 7 with that crazy long musk turtle neck.

I appreciate the reassurance. I am just shocked at how she laid 5 eggs in the 3rd clutch and 18 days latter laid another 6 eggs ! And they are big eggs to i dont know how she pysicaly fits them in her shell. its crazy
(2nd Picture bellow) of the second and third clutches of this year .

Do you have any experiences with breeding musk ? i have been searching EVERYWHERE for a breeder or vet to get more info on this specific breed.

Untill i hear different im just going to hope that this prolific breeding season is just a sign of a happy healthy turtle.

PS. thanks for the tip on the shells getting thinner. i had forgotten about that and i need to make sure im extra gentile with them.

Forum member shell freak (name Randy Betz) is a hobbyist breeder and is who I got my razor backed Musk hatchling from. You could pm him here on the forum (shell freak) or you could probably contact him through his website: TortStork.com

 

[mark1]

I would think obviously yes …….. diet has been shown to affect the quality and quantity of chickens egg production ……… wolves have been shown to have smaller litters in years of scarcity of prey ……… I've seen it shown animals having larger litters in times of lowered population numbers …….. with the advent of ultrasound embryo resorption has been shown to be a reality , nutrition being a suspected cause……..

 

[Russian Rehab]

I would think obviously yes …….. diet has been shown to affect the quality and quantity of chickens egg production ……… wolves have been shown to have smaller litters in years of scarcity of prey ……… I've seen it shown animals having larger litters in times of lowered population numbers …….. with the advent of ultrasound embryo resorption has been shown to be a reality , nutrition being a suspected cause……..

Thanks for responding!

This was my first instinct as well! it would make sense that in times ware the environment is filled with food and safe from predators that turtles would have more babies because more are likely to survive and therefor worth the investment.

my next question would be do you think it is dangerous for her to be producing so many babies in one season? or do you think if she couldn't handle it she would just start laying fewer eggs?

I really don't want to be over- feeding and causing her to stress herself if they are in fact related. As much as baby turtles are adorable mommas health comes first!

She is definalty in tip top shape health wise. She had a perfect checkup from the vet last year before i introduced the male and the vet helped me choose foods for her she is currently getting

Daily
Good quality aquatic turtle pellets
2 frozen thawed pinkie mice
plants in her enclosure

also
one item Rotating every other day
Frozen blood worm blocks
Ramshorn Snails
Red Wiggler composing worms (that i keep them in a fish tank inside so i know exactly what they eat and that their are no chemicals in them)
freeze dried Sardines
freez dried meal worms

in the winter she only wanted the pellets but she is ravenous now. she was very skidish in the winter and would hide from me all the time but now she is constantly swimming t word be begging for food.

 

[Russian Rehab]

Forum member shell freak (name Randy Betz) is a hobbyist breeder and is who I got my razor backed Musk hatchling from. You could pm him here on the forum (shell freak) or you could probably contact him through his website: TortStork.com

Thanks for the tip i will for sure try to connect with him!

 

[Pastel Tortie]

Thanks for responding!

This was my first instinct as well! it would make sense that in times ware the environment is filled with food and safe from predators that turtles would have more babies because more are likely to survive and therefor worth the investment.

my next question would be do you think it is dangerous for her to be producing so many babies in one season? or do you think if she couldn't handle it she would just start laying fewer eggs?

I really don't want to be over- feeding and causing her to stress herself if they are in fact related. As much as baby turtles are adorable mommas health comes first!

She is definalty in tip top shape health wise. She had a perfect checkup from the vet last year before i introduced the male and the vet helped me choose foods for her she is currently getting

Daily
Good quality aquatic turtle pellets
2 frozen thawed pinkie mice
plants in her enclosure

also
one item Rotating every other day
Frozen blood worm blocks
Ramshorn Snails
Red Wiggler composing worms (that i keep them in a fish tank inside so i know exactly what they eat and that their are no chemicals in them)
freeze dried Sardines
freez dried meal worms

in the winter she only wanted the pellets but she is ravenous now. she was very skidish in the winter and would hide from me all the time but now she is constantly swimming t word be begging for food.

Great detail! With that menu, I can see where you might be concerned about feeding her too much, but the bulk of that nutrition is getting channeled into egg production. I think your veterinarian may have hit on the magic formula for supporting musk turtle reproduction and keeping the embryos from being re-absorbed. Her body would not be producing that many eggs if she couldn't handle it. That menu is just supporting her ability to handle it.

As long as she isn't gorging herself to the point of vomiting, and as long as she isn't having problems with egg binding, I think you're good to keep up the plan that you and your veterinarian developed. It sounds like and your female are doing great!

 

[mark1]

I personally feed my turtles 2-3 times a week from april/may-September/October and not at all through the winter , they do hibernate at that time …... I believe ectotherms are said to have 1/10th the metabolism of a similar sized endotherm , anecdotally it appears something like that to me ……… as fed as your turtle are I doubt the number of eggs or clutches are a problem ……… I believe some of the possible causes of something like dystocia in turtles are too large of an egg or eggs , other egg/shell abnormalities , a poorly conditioned or sick animal , or them voluntarily retaining them due to poor laying conditions until they become problematic …… can some of those suspected causes be caused by diet ? how common is dystocia in wild turtles ? I believe nutrition is at least a partial cause of dystocia in domestic dogs , which is common , I don't believe it's common in wild dogs ........ wolf litters are 4-6 , similar sized domestic dogs are 6-15 ......... the pups of domestic dogs are often born one and a half to two times the size of wolf pups ......


http://www.amasquefa.com/uploads/138._HEPATIC_LIPIDOSIS_IN_REPTILES238.pdf