Charting weight gain, specifically in sulcatas

[Odin's Gma]

I know that sulcata weights are pretty variable, but does anyone have an accurate charting model, or data on their torts?
I didn't start charting until this past month when I realized that ours was likely small and started dry, but over the last 5 weeks his weight gain has been steadily climbing and with a rough estimated birth weight of 35 gm he has gained @ 100 gms in 9 months. I would be interested to put something together as a comparative model so new owners could have some kind of idea if their torts are within the weight range of other healthy, captive torts their age. If you have any data to add it doesn't have to be super specific, as in every Sunday at exactly the same time or anything, if you just have one weight a month with their age at that time it would be great, heck, even less often would work.

I really like data and graphs and the more I watch him grow the more curious I am about the subject and I just can't find any information on the subject.

 

[lismar79]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/harper-the-growing-machine.92205/

Here is my thread on my sully. I got her at 7 months amd I started thread at 9. Towards the end are the early weights I got from previous owner. She hatched 8/11/13. I have not updated in a while but I'm betting we are about 8 lbs now.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Thank you! I am adding it in. So far I only have data from 5 sulcatas and the range for the first year is already amazing to see.

 

[Odin's Gma]

I posted this in the health section also, but I know some people only hang out in certain areas of the forum, so I am reposting here.

I know that sulcata weights are pretty variable, but does anyone have an accurate charting model, or data on their torts?
I didn't start charting until this past month when I realized that ours was likely small and started dry, but over the last 5 weeks his weight gain has been steadily climbing and with a rough estimated birth weight of 35 gm he has gained @ 100 gms in 9 months. I would be interested to put something together as a comparative model so new owners could have some kind of idea if their torts are within the weight range of other healthy, captive torts their age. If you have any data to add it doesn't have to be super specific, as in every Sunday at exactly the same time or anything, if you just have one weight a month with their age at that time it would be great, heck, even less often would work.

I really like data and graphs and the more I watch him grow the more curious I am about the subject and I just can't find any information on the subject.
Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Tom]

The reason you don't see any data or averages is because the extremes are so widely spread out that any average is meaningless. For example: Many dry raised ones struggle to break 100 grams in their first year. My babies typically break 1000 grams in their first year. Slower ones would be 800-900 and faster ones would be 1200-1300. And this is on mostly grass and weeds. They'd grow even faster if I fed them lots of Mazuri. I'm not trying to grow them fast. I feed them the same food and quantity as anyone else, and probably less than many people. I have a 50 pound four year old female. Other people have 20 pound 8 year olds. There are just too many variables and the spread is too great.

So with the above numbers would we say the average is around 550 grams in their first year? Then you would think something was terribly wrong since yours is 5 times smaller than our "average", and I would think something is terribly wrong with mine to be double the average, when in reality, both are probably just fine if all else is good. All else being proper diet, UV, good hydration, large enclosure for exercise, etc...

 

[Odin's Gma]

I'm not looking for an average per se, I am more interested in a high/low range (at this point I am graphing a low average and calling it 10%, and a high average calling it 90%) broken down by age, specifically in the first year or so to give new owners a better idea of how their babies are progressing. Interestingly enough, the small amount of data that I have found here and there on the forum bolsters your methods. It's easy to say that their diets and humidity are in the acceptable ranges or were from good breeders, but in the case of mine, it has shown me so far that despite how healthy and happy he seems, he is small, was started dry, and we can do better going forward.

 

[Tom]

I did a thread on this a few years back. Let me see if I can find it...

 

[franz_see]

Hi @Odin's Gma , that's very interesting. I've started collecting growth charts as well because I find it hard to look for some. So everytime I see one, I put them in a common format for easier comparison The thread is here http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/tortoise-growth-charts.113321/

Also, I'd like to request for yours as well so that I can add it to the collection Would that be ok?

Thanks,
Franz See

 

[HLogic]

The data is perfectly legitimate. The means of analysis may need some advancement. There are much more meaningful values than average, 10 & 90 percentiles and median values. This sounds like a great opportunity for an education in basic statistics. As scary as it might sound, it is not that difficult and if your data is maintained in spreadsheets or databases, almost all of those programs have the functions already built-in for the basic statistical calculations.

What values & calculations are customarily used on data of this nature. What values, ranges of values, anomalous values, trends, etc. are significant? What calculations and tests should be performed to validate the data? What projections or predictions can be made? Are the projections/predictions correct (i.e. borne out by empirical data)? How can these data be visualized?

 

[franz_see]

Hi @HLogic, you are correct It's very rudimentary I didn't even bother making it too complex but I agree that taking the 90th percentile would definitely improve the numbers. But even then, there's not much data actually to make this statistically significant It's just anecdotal at best

However, these are what I've learn so far :
1. Correlating growth against age would be very difficult (if not impossible)
2. Growth rate is roughly stable. That is, if your tortoise grew by X% last month, most likely, it'll grow more or less by X% as well this month.
3. Growth rate decreases as they grow

Furthermore, if you would allow me to be so bold, I would say that sulcata hatchlings normally grow at about 5-15% per week. Some would grow faster, some would grow slower. Health-wise though, doesn't really matter much. It's better to use activity, eating habits, and their bowel movement to check health than growth rate. These animals can grow incredibly slow and incredibly fast, and both be healthy

Last, my next goals are:
1. Get more and more data
2. Get more feedback from people

Any claims I do right now should just be taken with a grain of salt

 

[HLogic]

Hi @HLogic, you are correct It's very rudimentary I didn't even bother making it too complex but I agree that taking the 90th percentile would definitely improve the numbers. But even then, there's not much data actually to make this statistically significant It's just anecdotal at best

However, these are what I've learn so far :
1. Correlating growth against age would be very difficult (if not impossible)
2. Growth rate is roughly stable. That is, if your tortoise grew by X% last month, most likely, it'll grow more or less by X% as well this month.
3. Growth rate decreases as they grow

Furthermore, if you would allow me to be so bold, I would say that sulcata hatchlings normally grow at about 5-15% per week. Some would grow faster, some would grow slower. Health-wise though, doesn't really matter much. It's better to use activity, eating habits, and their bowel movement to check health than growth rate. These animals can grow incredibly slow and incredibly fast, and both be healthy

Last, my next goals are:
1. Get more and more data
2. Get more feedback from people

Any claims I do right now should just be taken with a grain of salt

Everything like this starts with a single data point. I agree, size vs. age, is not a consistent comparison but perhaps something like SCL vs. mass or some other metric plotted against mass might have a decidedly significant correlation. That's what the tests are meant to determine. More data is better. More sources of the same data are better.

Let the data speak for themselves. It may not hold over the long term but that doesn't mean it is incorrect.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Hi @Odin's Gma , that's very interesting. I've started collecting growth charts as well because I find it hard to look for some. So everytime I see one, I put them in a common format for easier comparison The thread is here http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/tortoise-growth-charts.113321/

Also, I'd like to request for yours as well so that I can add it to the collection Would that be ok?

Thanks,
Franz See

Absolutely, and thanks for the link! Once I get through adding all the data I can from the charts you have I will send you what i've got so far. Yay!

 

[franz_see]

@HLogic Agree. My assumption is that there's a correlation between SCL and Weight as well. Interestingly enough though, I find i easier to find records by weight vs by length

 

[franz_see]

@Odin's Gma Great! looking forward to it

 

[HLogic]

@HLogic Agree. My assumption is that there's a correlation between SCL and Weight as well. Interestingly enough though, I find i easier to find records by weight vs by length

By what "length"? SCL is Straight Carapace Length - which will definitely vary between species. Perhaps calculating a volume vs. mass would be more universal...

 

[Robertchrisroph]

Wonderful work.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Heres some recent data on ours:

• 
  
  
  • 2014 - hatch date
  • 10 Jun - arrived in the mail from LaneCham

July 2014

• 
  
  
  • 19 July - 093 g
  • 23 July - 095 g
  • 26 July - 102 g

August

• 
  
  
  • 03 Aug - 116 g
  • 10 Aug - 134 g
  • 17 Aug - 140 g
  • 24 Aug - 156 g
  • 31 Aug - 159 g

September

• 
  
  
  • 05 Sep - 173 g
  • 16 Sep - 182 g
  • 21 Sep - 183 g

October

• 
  
  
  • 05 Oct - 208 g
  • 12 Oct - 220 g
  • 19 Oct - 233 g
  • 26 Oct - 248 g

November

• 
  
  
  • 02 Nov - 262 g
  • 09 Nov - 287 g
  • 23 Nov - 291 g
  • 30 Nov - 304 g
  • 07 Dec - 317 g = .69887 lbs

December 2014

• 07 Dec - 317 g = .69887 lbs
• 14 Dec - 334 g = .73634 lbs
• 21 Dec - 339 g = .74737 lbs
• 28 Dec - 339 g = .74737 lbs

January 2015

• 04 Jan - 356 g = .78484 lbs
• 18 Jan - 381 g = .83996 lbs
• 31 Jan - 396 g = .87303 lbs

February 2015

• 07 Feb - 395 g
• 15 Feb - 468 g = 1.031 lbs - roughly 9 months old.
• 22 Feb - 465 g = 1.025 lbs

 

[Odin's Gma]

Thank you!

 

[Odin's Gma]

Here is what I have so far. Very small sample size, and in no way intended to be proof of health or lack thereof, but it's a start.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9YAmY-RgaGjY0VhWDdESTJaTUU/view?usp=sharing

 

[Odin's Gma]

Here is what I have so far, obviously a minuscule sample size (19, with some subjects only contributing very little) and no names or info on how they have been raised (except in my head) but it's intent was to be a very simplified snapshot of the growth curve and weight.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9YAmY-RgaGjY0VhWDdESTJaTUU/view?usp=sharing