Chula Vista city council to BAN reptiles

[LLLReptile]

Anyone in the San Diego area?

Please go to the Chula Vista city council meeting tomorrow, even if you're not from Chula Vista, to add your voice to this meeting and STOP them from banning all monitors, pythons, and boas.

The way that this bill is worded, in that it is banning "the sale, possession for sale, importation or breeding of a wild animal", and then goes on to paint an extremely broad description of what constitutes a wild animal. While initially it is only trying to ban monitors, boas, and pythons, the language in the bill can also be extended to include tortoises (in particular, sulcattas and other large species - if they'll ban birds over 15 lbs, why not tortoises?).

PLEASE add your voice to this and stop this from taking place!

http://capwiz.com/pijac/issues/alert/?alertid=61038021&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

Share this with your friends, do anything you can. Thanks for any and all help you can give!

*edit* As it stands, it can be applied to ban tortoises as well.
The actual ordinance reads " No person shall possess or maintain within the jurisdiction of the ordinance codified any animal which is not normally domesticated in the United States, including, but not limited to..." upon which it lists a large number of various types of animals.

-Jen

 

[Tom]

Thanks for the heads up.

Does any one still think we live in a "free" country?

 

[wellington]

Thanks for the heads up.

Does any one still think we live in a "free" country?

Glad to know I am not the only one who thinks it. I have been saying it for years. I do think this is the best country, but it is not a "free" country and it is getting worse. From animals to what we eat, drink, it doesn't seem to end.

 

[dmmj]

Remember they will ban the so called "dangerous" reptiles before they come for the others. You notice they are going after pythons, monitors, and boas

 

[TurtlePunk]

For those who live in California

THE SNAKE BAN HAS COME!

Not only is the city of Chula Vista proposing to ban ALL BOAS AND PYTHONS over 3.5 feet as well as ALL monitors, BUT they are also trying to ban rodents and birds!!!!

SOO many problems in the world yet they decide that taking peoples' pets away is MOST important!

http://www.kingsnake.com/blog/archives/833-Chula-Vista-proposes-boa-and-python-ban,-meeting-tomorrow.html

 

[LLLReptile]

RE: For those who live in California

From the Kingsnake.com Facebook Page:

"kingsnake.com
From Chula Vista! Thanks Cynthia Armstrong Chaplin:
Tonight was a victory for herpers in the city of Chula Vista, CA. An ordinance was introduced to expand the city’s animals laws that originally included criminalizing sales and ownership of pythons and boas over 15 pounds or three and a half feet, and all monitor species, defining them as wild animals. It also included venomous snakes and crocodilians. The local reptile community only learned of these changes last minute, and scrambled to attend the meeting and make their voices heard. Thanks to a strong effort by Susan Nowicke, the president of the San Diego Herpetological Society, owner of LLL Reptiles Loren Leigh, the whole tribe from Southbay Tropical Marine and Reptile, and many other dedicated individuals, we were able to talk with Animal Services and get some last minute revisions pushed through. The most important of these changed the verbiage from a ban to an enclosure regulation, stating in essence that these animals “must be kept in such cages as to preclude escape and allow for freedom of movement” and that they will not be classified as wild animals.
There was a significant stir in the crowd when the presenter stated that this ordinance applied to boas and “some kind of lizard” and that he’d just learned that “poisonous” wasn’t appropriate. Fortunately, the committee was open to being educated. Main highlights from the commenters included statements from Southbay Tropical protesting that the changes in regulations were not sufficiently announced, and focusing on the benefits of certain types of snakes as pets for children. Susan Nowicke presented the fact that, in the last three years, only five reptiles have been turned over to the Herp Society for re-homing regardless of the fact that the Society is Animal Control’s primary liaison for reptiles. The owner of T-Rex products (sorry, I missed his name!) also voiced concerns that these original recommendations were not based on any information about the actual animals themselves and how no fiscal studies had been conducted.
The quote of the night was from a private owner: “We don’t have a snake problem. I didn’t almost hit a snake on my way here!”
The session began at 4:00 pm and at 10:48 the amended ordinance was passed with a unanimous vote. It was a long night, but what a relief!"

-Jen

 

[Laura]

the people who come up with these bans.. are so Uneducated! they have NO CLUE what they are banning... or how wide spread it could go.. they need to be educated and shown the animals up close to personal to understand ...
Go Forth and Educate!

 

[IRTehDuckie]

I used to live there, and I have a sully, hes small now, BUT im happy i got out before that happened..

In al honesty though, its sort of a good thing they are doing it for snakes, because A LOT of people dont know what to do with them when they get bigger so they just release them... Boa's and pythons are now 'wild' all the way up to Kentucky Climate because people release them into the wild when they don't want them anymore, and its really killing the ecosystem and a lot of the snakes are killing out most of the natural wildlife... It's a good thing for breeders who dont care about who they sell the snakes to, but its a bad thing for us, who really care about our pets, and we arent just going to abandon them.. It's a comitment, and people need to realize that, because the people who dont are ruining it for us.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

In al honesty though, its sort of a good thing they are doing it for snakes, because A LOT of people dont know what to do with them when they get bigger so they just release them... Boa's and pythons are now 'wild' all the way up to Kentucky Climate because people release them into the wild when they don't want them anymore, and its really killing the ecosystem and a lot of the snakes are killing out most of the natural wildlife... It's a good thing for breeders who dont care about who they sell the snakes to, but its a bad thing for us, who really care about our pets, and we arent just going to abandon them.. It's a comitment, and people need to realize that, because the people who dont are ruining it for us.

Okay..I'm gonna bite...

I'm certainly not going to make the claim that that there are no irresponsible snake owners in the world who have either had their animals escape or intentionally released into the wild, because I know it does happen. However, I would like to challenge you to provide any substantial evidence that any exotic snake species have become established in the state of Kentucky (or anywhere else in the United States besides Florida for that matter). Do you have a count for how many non-native snakes have been found in Kentucky so far, and what exact species? References or links where I might find this information? Are there any official studies on how many of these snakes are estimated to be living in the state, and their real effect on the ecosystem?

I only ask because I certainly hope you're not founding these statements on hyped-up media or Animal Planet. Again, I agree that it is deplorable that there are irresponsible pet owners out there, but the occasional released boa constrictor does mean that giant pythons have migrated all the way up to Kentucky and established themselves.

It behooves everyone in the reptile community not to jump to silly conclusions and get their facts straight before spouting off falsehoods that further damage our hobby. I could stand here and preach about all the escaped sulcatas that people always seem to find wandering around, and how they compete with our native endangered tortoise species. It is so easy to criticize a hobby that is not your own.

Sorry if I come off blunt, but as a snake owner myself, I hate it when people believe lies about this hobby of mine. I REALLY hate when fellow reptile keepers fall for the same BS.

---

And I notice you're from California. Might I ask what the heck do you know about "Boa's and pythons making it all the way up to the Kentucky Climate" when you're on the other side of the country? I'm from Alabama, about an hour away from the Florida stateline. I can tell you right now there are no pythons and boas establishing themselves here because we just had a week of nighttime temps below 40'F! If they can't tought it out through that, how are they going to make it all the way into KY?

Don't believe everything you see in the news, folks. Use your brain.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

In al honesty though, its sort of a good thing they are doing it for snakes, because A LOT of people dont know what to do with them when they get bigger so they just release them... Boa's and pythons are now 'wild' all the way up to Kentucky Climate because people release them into the wild when they don't want them anymore, and its really killing the ecosystem and a lot of the snakes are killing out most of the natural wildlife... It's a good thing for breeders who dont care about who they sell the snakes to, but its a bad thing for us, who really care about our pets, and we arent just going to abandon them.. It's a comitment, and people need to realize that, because the people who dont are ruining it for us.

Okay..I'm gonna bite...

I'm certainly not going to make the claim that that there are no irresponsible snake owners in the world who have either had their animals escape or intentionally released into the wild, because I know it does happen. However, I would like to challenge you to provide any substantial evidence that any exotic snake species have become established in the state of Kentucky (or anywhere else in the United States besides Florida for that matter). Do you have a count for how many non-native snakes have been found in Kentucky so far, and what exact species? References or links where I might find this information? Are there any official studies on how many of these snakes are estimated to be living in the state, and their real effect on the ecosystem?

I only ask because I certainly hope you're not founding these statements on hyped-up media or Animal Planet. Again, I agree that it is deplorable that there are irresponsible pet owners out there, but the occasional released boa constrictor does mean that giant pythons have migrated all the way up to Kentucky and established themselves.

It behooves everyone in the reptile community not to jump to silly conclusions and get their facts straight before spouting off falsehoods that further damage our hobby. I could stand here and preach about all the escaped sulcatas that people always seem to find wandering around, and how they compete with our native endangered tortoise species. It is so easy to criticize a hobby that is not your own.

Sorry if I come off blunt, but as a snake owner myself, I hate it when people believe lies about this hobby of mine. I REALLY hate when fellow reptile keepers fall for the same BS.

no offense taken, and im sorry if I came of blunt, i didnt mean to, and no its not hyped up media or animal planet lol (which made me giggle) I understand it is a hobby of yours, and im not saying that tort owners dont do the same thing.. i see all these people with baby torts, and rarely ever see the adult ones.. so i could only imagine where they go.. im not saying only people with snakes do it, people with exotic fish, birds, everything does it.. so dont think i was only talking about snake owners. Sorry again if I came off that way. Also sorry if i sound like i am defending myself, because i am.

Sorry about Kentucky also, It's not that far north, I wrote that off of memory and I correct myself, They have been found to live as far north as Tennessee and can survive there.. I apologize about my wrong information, and I do not mean to 'diss' your hobby.. but you are not the only one with a hobby that people jump to conclusions about.. you are on the TFO and we are a family here.

 

[jackrat]

Thanks for the heads up.

Does any one still think we live in a "free" country?

Nope,not me.

 

[Kerryann]

Thanks for the heads up.

Does any one still think we live in a "free" country?

Nope,not me.

Not me either

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Sorry about Kentucky also, It's not that far north, I wrote that off of memory and I correct myself, They have been found to live as far north as Tennessee and can survive there.. I apologize about my wrong information, and I do not mean to 'diss' your hobby.. but you are not the only one with a hobby that people jump to conclusions about.. you are on the TFO and we are a family here.

Again, I ask for references that those snakes (which species, specifically) have been documented to been "live" that far north. I only push the question for a handful of reasons. First of all, as a snake keeper myself, I generally associate in different herpetological circles than most of the members here just because for years, I've been more of a snake guy. Consequently, I probably hear about this kind of stuff a lot sooner than any of you here. I get wind of it nearly every time some online newsfeed runs an article about snakes. Every time they find another huge Burmese python in the Everglades over 10 ft, I usually hear about it sooner or later. Everytime someone finds an escaped large constrictor snake ANYWHERE in the U.S., I probably end up hearing/reading about it at some point. In the past 15+ years of working/dealing with herps, I have never heard of any established populations of non-native exotic snake species outside of South Florida.

I do not know them personally, but I know of Jim Harrison and Will Bird who not only work at the Kentucky Reptile Zoo, but are also well-known in their herpetological communities up there. They also both work closely with KY Fish & Game and KY Fish & Wildlife doing surveys on native herp species. They both spend hours and hours every season out in the field looking for snakes. As far as I know, they have never found a python or boa.

I have a handful of snake keeper buddies in Tennessee. I'm fairly certain if a boa or python was found, it makes the news and the story would eventually trickle down to the circles I run in. Nothing about established boa or python species in Tennessee.

I am the president of our local herp society here in southwest Alabama, and network closely with the other herp clubs in the state. I and several of my colleagues often go field-herping in areas across the state, as well as the Florida panhandle and southeast Mississippi. I nor anyone I know has ever come across a boa or python.

In the past 5 years, I know of about 4 instances where a large constrictor was found in my area (Mobile county), and they were all proven to be escaped pets. There has been no documented reports of young snakes, no gravid females, no nest sites, etc. The evidence leads me to believe that these are isolated incidents of escaped or released pets, and that's it. No evidence that the snakes are becoming established in any of the areas/states I just described.
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Now...I will concur that any exotic snake will feasibly be able to survive our summer months if escaped or released during those periods of the year. But come November/Dec/Jan, where in most of those areas, nighttime temps get 40'F or below, none of those snakes species can survive. They barely survive in southern Florida, despite what the media and politicians would have you believe. For anyone to say that those snakes have established themselves in Tennessee or Kentucky, well...they'd have to be able to do it Alabama, Mississippi and north Florida, too. All evidence indicates that they cannot, so again I ask you: can you provide any real evidence that those snakes have been established in TN or KY? Just because one or two have been "found" does not mean they are established there.

 

[Tom]

Glad this ban failed. Maybe there is still some hope for our country and our species. (Humans I mean)

IRTehDuckie, It is NOT a good thing when a government of the people, by the people and for the people, tells responsible adults what they can and cannot do, because a few irresponsible jackasses MIGHT do something wrong. And those exotic species of snakes cannot even survive in our relatively mild Southern CA climate outside of our summers. There is no way they are surviving elsewhere in the country. Even in sunny semi-tropical south FL, they die off in droves when the temps occasionally dip in the winter.

I completely agree with the point of view that with all of the problems in the world and our country that it is absolutely RIDICULOUS that any branch of government is wasting one second of time worrying about a few peoples pet lizards and snakes. WTH is wrong with our society!?! Gangs and crime run amok, illegal aliens drain our society, children are abused and murdered, our whole society has become very financially unstable in recent years, gas prices have skyrocketed and fuel companies are posting record breaking profits, identity theft, fraud, muggings, graffiti, drug abuse, drunk driving, etc... All this crap going on and they care if I keep a red ackie or a friggin' boa constrictor in my own highly taxed home? WTH!?! This is despicable. Its ridiculous. Its stupid and a complete WASTE of time. What REAL issues are being ignored while our "Officials" are dealing with this absurd non-issue. Its infuriating to me... They wanna talk about my pet monitor lizard while the two little girls down the street have no father because a #*%*$#% 6th time offender drunk driver ran him over and killed him... My pet lizard has never hurt anyone!!! Ugh.... end rant...

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

This is another one close to home...

Some good friends of mine who run an exotic animals rescue (of which I'm on the board of and occasionally help them out with) have had some recent problems with their neighbor's pitbull. Now, before I go on, I have nothing against dogs, or pitbulls in particular. The breed has a undeserving reputation brought on by irresponsible and negligent keepers, and not to be faulted by the dog(s) themselves. But this dog has repeatedly rushed out and attacked them, other neighbors and the UPS man that frequents that area. I was warned of the dog's presence when I recently came out that way to deliver some supplies. The police have been informed, reports have been given, and my neighbor was told by one of the officers that if the dog is unleashed and tries to attack him on his property again, he is within his rights to shoot it. The owner, I'm told, is not concerned, and continually defends her dog, claiming it wouldn't hurt anyone.
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This kind of thing happens all of the time all across the country. More people keep dogs than any type of reptile. Not that I support any kind of ban or restriction of pet ownership freedoms, but logic dictates that if you are genuinely concerned about public safety and responsible pet ownership, start regulating how people keep dogs before you go after reptiles. It doesn't matter where I'm at: if I'm out riding my bike, or pushing the kids in the stroller with my wife by my side, I'm not concerned about a 10-ft python leaping out of the bushes, or a nile monitor rushing from the foliage. I'm worried about the neighbor's German Shepherd if it jumped over their fence again.
------------------
From an environmental standpoint, feral cats are a much bigger problem nationwide than any reptile. Yet how many of these bleeding-heart eco-nuts do you see trying to push for more laws restricting cat ownership? None that I'm aware of. Logic dictates that if one is truly concerned about the impact that invasive non-native pet species have on the environment, that you would gun for the ones that do the most damage. But no. They go for the easy targets: the icky, creepy scary reptiles that most people don't like anyway, even though the impact they have is minimal compared to many others animal species.
-----

I've said it before and I'll say it again. These bans we keep seeing popping up have nothing to do with the environment. They have little to do with public safety. They are all founded on ignorance & fear-mongering, and are the work of agenda-driven non-govt agencies that simply do not like us owning exotic pets.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

I am glad the ban failed too.. and again you dont understand what i am trying to say... i never said that they were "established" i said they can survive out there, i never once said how long or anything like that.. i never said they were taking over. I know pretty much ALL of them are escaped or pets that were let go, I never said a snake from Florida came up to TN and started a family. I lived in NC for 2 years, and i know of 1 time that we had found a python. No, i doubt it was documented or anything like that, so sorry i dont have your 'proof' that they can survive a little while in those states.
and again, i never said that they were 'established' there... i do not want to argue over something like this, because you took what i said into wrong context. All i was saying is that people let their pets go, and since the article was relating directly to snakes.. i singled them out, but people let their pets go all the time, and they escape all the time. I am NOT singling you out, i have had 2 turtles escape of my own, one we found and one we didnt. (water turtles, not torts) So please do not be for defensive, because i didnt mean anything by it.. and you have to agree with me.. some people just shouldnt be allowed to have pets in general.. I was singling THEM out, not you, or myself, or anybody on the tfo.
""I do not know them personally, but I know of Jim Harrison and Will Bird who not only work at the Kentucky Reptile Zoo, but are also well-known in their herpetological communities up there. They also both work closely with KY Fish & Game and KY Fish & Wildlife doing surveys on native herp species. They both spend hours and hours every season out in the field looking for snakes. As far as I know, they have never found a python or boa."" << you cannot honestly use that agaisnt your defense either. 2 people in all of KY havent found a Boa or Python. I can spend hours on a lake fishing and never catch that huge bass. but everybody knows there's one in there.
""In the past 5 years, I know of about 4 instances where a large constrictor was found in my area (Mobile county), and they were all proven to be escaped pets. There has been no documented reports of young snakes, no gravid females, no nest sites, etc. The evidence leads me to believe that these are isolated incidents of escaped or released pets, and that's it. No evidence that the snakes are becoming established in any of the areas/states I just described."" << Which is why i said that it can be a good thing, because they are escaped or released pets pretty much every time, and again.. i never used the word "established.
""I am the president of our local herp society here in southwest Alabama, and network closely with the other herp clubs in the state. I and several of my colleagues often go field-herping in areas across the state, as well as the Florida panhandle and southeast Mississippi. I nor anyone I know has ever come across a boa or python."" << also, that is the south, nothing against them either, because people in michigan will do the exact same thing, if somebody sees a snake like that on their property they arent going to call animal control and report seeing a boa or python there, they are going to shoot/stab/kill that snake and dispose of it. That is what we did in NC, so im pretty sure we wouldnt be the ONLY ones in the states who have/will do that.
You cannot only go by what YOU know, there are millions of people out there, and a lot of them wont/don't/haven't reported things like that, especially people who have their own land, and live out in the woods/tropics/wetlands etc. I am not going by what only I know either, its a whole community of people.
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To Tom, I am VERY glad this ban failed, but the government of the people, by the people and for the people is NOT the kind of government we actually have. They have been doing that since they started being 'the government'. I do agree that there are ******* MILLIONS of problems that they should be worried about elsewhere, and not bother with this.
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In conclusion, what i firstly said wasnt meant to **** anybody off... I am ON YOUR SIDE, and i understand you are frustrated with the media spreading lies and the government doing stupid crap like this, but you sholuldnt take it out on your fellow reptile lovers. The only reason the government is even stepping in on crap like this is because society doesnt view reptiles like WE do, they see them scary and dangerous. WE need to stick together and show them how they really can be. You took what i said completely as a negative comment and didnt even bother to understand. and here you are still defending yourself, for no reason, because i did NOT say that to offend you or start some huge debate when there is nothing to debate.. all i am saying is there are people who SHOULDN'T HAVE PETS IN GENERAL. that's all.

 

[dmmj]

Look at california you can't walk into any park I know of and not see dozens if not hundreds of RES (mainly) swimming in ponds. I am against any ban that punishes good honest keepers of animals because of the actions of a few stupid ones.

 

[IRTehDuckie]

I completely agree with you!!

Look at california you can't walk into any park I know of and not see dozens if not hundreds of RES (mainly) swimming in ponds. I am against any ban that punishes good honest keepers of animals because of the actions of a few stupid ones.

---

This is another one close to home...

Some good friends of mine who run an exotic animals rescue (of which I'm on the board of and occasionally help them out with) have had some recent problems with their neighbor's pitbull. Now, before I go on, I have nothing against dogs, or pitbulls in particular. The breed has a undeserving reputation brought on by irresponsible and negligent keepers, and not to be faulted by the dog(s) themselves. But this dog has repeatedly rushed out and attacked them, other neighbors and the UPS man that frequents that area. I was warned of the dog's presence when I recently came out that way to deliver some supplies. The police have been informed, reports have been given, and my neighbor was told by one of the officers that if the dog is unleashed and tries to attack him on his property again, he is within his rights to shoot it. The owner, I'm told, is not concerned, and continually defends her dog, claiming it wouldn't hurt anyone.
-------------
This kind of thing happens all of the time all across the country. More people keep dogs than any type of reptile. Not that I support any kind of ban or restriction of pet ownership freedoms, but logic dictates that if you are genuinely concerned about public safety and responsible pet ownership, start regulating how people keep dogs before you go after reptiles. It doesn't matter where I'm at: if I'm out riding my bike, or pushing the kids in the stroller with my wife by my side, I'm not concerned about a 10-ft python leaping out of the bushes, or a nile monitor rushing from the foliage. I'm worried about the neighbor's German Shepherd if it jumped over their fence again.
------------------
From an environmental standpoint, feral cats are a much bigger problem nationwide than any reptile. Yet how many of these bleeding-heart eco-nuts do you see trying to push for more laws restricting cat ownership? None that I'm aware of. Logic dictates that if one is truly concerned about the impact that invasive non-native pet species have on the environment, that you would gun for the ones that do the most damage. But no. They go for the easy targets: the icky, creepy scary reptiles that most people don't like anyway, even though the impact they have is minimal compared to many others animal species.
-----

I've said it before and I'll say it again. These bans we keep seeing popping up have nothing to do with the environment. They have little to do with public safety. They are all founded on ignorance & fear-mongering, and are the work of agenda-driven non-govt agencies that simply do not like us owning exotic pets.

and again, i agree with you.. there are bigger problems out there than the bill that was rejected yesterday.. and no Im not scared of a python eating my kid when i let him out to play, but i am more worried about the dogs a few houses down more than i am a giant *** python. I just cant be bothered to respond to this crap anymore, you are arguing with somebody who agrees with you...

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

and again you dont understand what i am trying to say... i never said that they were "established" i said they can survive out there, i never once said how long or anything like that.. i never said they were taking over. ~~~ No, i doubt it was documented or anything like that, so sorry i dont have your 'proof' that they can survive a little while in those states.

In your initial post, you said the following:

"Boa's and pythons are now 'wild' all the way up to Kentucky Climate because people release them into the wild when they don't want them anymore, and its really killing the ecosystem and a lot of the snakes are killing out most of the natural wildlife."

By "all the way up to Kentucky" I took it as you were implying these snakes came "all the way from" somewhere, meaning TN, AL, FL, etc. Again, I agree that these snakes can stake out a living during the warm months. Cold winter months? If you don't have any actual data, then I would just be careful in the future how you word your claims.

All i was saying is that people let their pets go, and since the article was relating directly to snakes.. i singled them out...

Indeed you did, with the following statement (post #8 of this thread):

In al honesty though, its sort of a good thing they are doing it for snakes, because A LOT of people dont know what to do with them when they get bigger so they just release them

Yet you have backtracked and agreed that this happens with all pets. Which is it? Do you really think it's fair that they single out large snakes and not other pets (large dog breeds, large turtles, large....anything)? If not, then how do I interpret that first post of yours?

So please do not be for defensive, because i didnt mean anything by it...

The old adage "Say what you mean, and mean what you say" comes to mind. My main point is just be careful how you give out information. Our hobby is under enough attack as it is, and the last thing we need is the continuous spread of more misinformation.

and you have to agree with me.. some people just shouldnt be allowed to have pets in general.. I was singling THEM out, not you, or myself, or anybody on the tfo.

I do heartily agree. Unfortunately, there is no easy, feasible way to weed out the goats from the sheep, so to speak. Outright bans are not the answers, and unless all sides can come together to form a reasonable solution, any form of regulation, permits, etc, are just as ineffective. Sadly, the freedom of the idiots is our freedom as well.

""I do not know them personally, but I know of Jim Harrison and Will Bird who not only work at the Kentucky Reptile Zoo, but are also well-known in their herpetological communities up there. They also both work closely with KY Fish & Game and KY Fish & Wildlife doing surveys on native herp species. They both spend hours and hours every season out in the field looking for snakes. As far as I know, they have never found a python or boa."" << you cannot honestly use that agaisnt your defense either. 2 people in all of KY havent found a Boa or Python. I can spend hours on a lake fishing and never catch that huge bass. but everybody knows there's one in there.

Good point, but perhaps "hours" wasn't the correct term. In this case, these two gentlemen probably spend over half of their waking hours in the bush looking for wildlife, searching under logs, debris, rocks, other cover, etc. A little different than just the odd weekend hiking a trail for a few hours.

<< also, that is the south, nothing against them either, because people in michigan will do the exact same thing, if somebody sees a snake like that on their property they arent going to call animal control and report seeing a boa or python there, they are going to shoot/stab/kill that snake and dispose of it. That is what we did in NC, so im pretty sure we wouldnt be the ONLY ones in the states who have/will do that.

Believe me, that is a more than common practice in the South! Usually only larger snakes get reported, hence the infrequency of reports for any constrictors.

You cannot only go by what YOU know, there are millions of people out there, and a lot of them wont/don't/haven't reported things like that, especially people who have their own land, and live out in the woods/tropics/wetlands etc. I am not going by what only I know either, its a whole community of people.

If people don't report it, then how can we assume they're finding those escaped snakes at all, hmmm? In contrast to your statement, we can ONLY go by what we know, which is actual reports. If I believed everything I "heard," there really are Burmese pythons moving their way up Florida heading toward Washington D.C.!

------------

In conclusion, what i firstly said wasnt meant to **** anybody off... I am ON YOUR SIDE, and i understand you are frustrated with the media spreading lies and the government doing stupid crap like this, but you sholuldnt take it out on your fellow reptile lovers. The only reason the government is even stepping in on crap like this is because society doesnt view reptiles like WE do, they see them scary and dangerous. WE need to stick together and show them how they really can be. You took what i said completely as a negative comment and didnt even bother to understand. and here you are still defending yourself, for no reason, because i did NOT say that to offend you or start some huge debate when there is nothing to debate.. all i am saying is there are people who SHOULDN'T HAVE PETS IN GENERAL. that's all.

I don't wish to argue either...but YOU'RE the one who first said that it is good that this ban involves snakes. I ask you, how is that being on the same side?

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Like Tom said, pretty much anywhere in the U.S. except southern Florida, any released/escaped exotic snake is going to be living on borrowed time, whether it be a few weeks or a few months, depending on the time of year. These tropical species simply cannot survive longterm in our winters. So I believe part of the reason I got defensive stemmed from just a matter of semantics. You say they can "live" in X area of Tennessee or Kentucky. I think we both agree that is not the same thing as actually being an established species. That said, I would venture to say that because these are isolated cases of released/escaped snakes being found, the claim that you made that they are "killing the ecosystem and a lot of the snakes are killing out most of the natural wildlife" is a little inaccurate. Now perhaps you were referring mainly to the Burmese pythons in south Florida, but your statement was pretty generalized. It was easy to interpret it in a broad sense.

I still hold you to your original comment that the ban was "good for the snakes" for reasons I already made. Sorry if you took offense to my "taking offense" to your statements, but you're correct. I am very passionate about this hobby. I get very frustrated at the spread of any misinformation, especially within the reptile community.

 

[Tom]

Enough said. Duckie, I'm not mad at you. Never was. Like "Student", my issue was with your claim that it was good "they" were doing this with snakes. I just can't sit back and listen when anyone claims that it is good for government to interfere even more on the daily lives of responsible Americans.

All is well. Glad we are all on the same side.