climate tolerance differences in leopards

[John]

So I was reading through some articles that I have and came across a couple different comments by Misty corton that have made me think about pyramiding, although these comments are not in relation to same.
The first" Without a doubt "runny nose syndrome" is the most frequent complaint encountered in South Africa"
The second "Again in regards to "runny nose syndrome", "Leopard tortoises are the worst affected, perhaps because of thier size, nutritional state and general inability to cope with our humidity and dampness."
So I have to wonder how these statements come into play in the great cold tolerance debate.It has also led me on a path of thinking that climate itself could be a factor in pyramiding.This is still in the baby stages in my head so I will post more later but any and all thoughts are welcome.

 

[Neal]

I think just about anything, if out of balance, could contribute to pyramiding...I'd like to hear more about what your thinking on that.

As far as the temperature tolerance debate goes...I don't know which would be more tollerant, I would go as far as to say that neither "type" is more tollerant or hardier than the other. It would seem that the South African type would be more cold tolerant (meaning they prefer colder temperatures as apposed to warm temperatures, not that they can survive colder temperatures), but to what extent has this been tested or researched? South Africa may typically have cooler temperatures than other parts of Africa, but then there are other parts of Africa where leopards live, known comonly as the babcocki range, where it could get just as cold. And I'm talking about just ambient temperatures, which don't consider the internal temperatures of the tortoises.

I was talking to my vet about this the other day, he was telling me about a friend of his who was hiking in East Africa. One morning there was frost all over the ground, he was preparing breakfast when a leopard tortoise walked through the camp. The tortoises shell was covered in frost, and it stopped to eat some of the weeds. He said the tortoise was no more than 15 inches.

 

[CtTortoiseMom]

One morning there was frost all over the ground, he was preparing breakfast when a leopard tortoise walked through the camp. The tortoises shell was covered in frost, and it stopped to eat some of the weeds. He said the tortoise was no more than 15 inches.
[/quote]

Nothing to add to the debate. Just a quick question… So maybe if my Leo developed a runny nose (in theory) It might help to lower humidity? Temp's already in a good range it is the humidity for a sub adult that I constantly wonder about.

Very interested in this, as a newbie with a Leopard just desperately trying to get everything right . Also, in regards to the above…. How cool would that be?!!! I wish I lived in a place where wild Leo's could just cruise on by!!!

 

[Neal]

Nothing to add to the debate. Just a quick question… So maybe if my Leo developed a runny nose (in theory) It might help to lower humidity? Temp's already in a good range it is the humidity for a sub adult that I constantly wonder about.

Very interested in this, as a newbie with a Leopard just desperately trying to get everything right . Also, in regards to the above…. How cool would that be?!!! I wish I lived in a place where wild Leo's could just cruise on by!!!

My opinion on the matter, I would lower the humidity for the sub adult if it started to have a runny nose, but I would increase the length of time it soaked to make sure it was well hydrated and bump up the temperatures. I don't have much experience nursing sub adult tortoises though, so that's just what I think might help. My sub adults are not subjected to any increase in humidity other than what is normal here outdoors in AZ.

lol, that would be cool to see wild tortoises just cruise by. For now I have huge windows that face my backyard, "wild" leopards roam back and forth all day long, and it is very cool.

 

[Balboa]

Heck, we've hashed this over ad naseum John

I suppose it can't hurt to reiterate some of my thoughts.

Research has shown that most tortoises (including leopards) are most active during the growing season, when temps are warm (but not stifling hot) and water is abundant. This is the time when they grow and add rings. It also follows that the air will be relatively humid during these times. When the rain stops falling, things stop growing, and the tort will become inactive and grow less. The air will dry out, but this won't have a negative effect on the tortoises growth because.... its not growing! The new growth ring firms up and that ring is "set".

This means warm, wet, humid= active growing tort
cold, dry = inactive, non-growing tort
hot, dry = inactive, non-growing tort

Start mixing things up, say feeding them lots of nutritious food when its too dry, feed them little food while its warm and humid, keep them cold and humid, etc, and things go wrong. They get sick, they pyramid, whatever.

As to climate being a factor, hell yes, I've been thinking that for a long time brother

If we consider the conditions that we expect to lead to pyramiding, being hot and dry, and the kind of environment that would be, with little cover available, the pyramided tortoise would have an advantage over the smooth, and be less likely to overheat with prolonged excursions under direct sun.

 

[TortieLuver]

I always have associated runny nose with not having the best setup for them outdoors, perhaps their house is too cold or too damp. However, my vet said that here in Arizona, a lot of Leopards are prone to runny noses that are caused by an organism in the dirt and grass. That it has nothing to do with how you house/care for them and it's out of my (your) control. HOWEVER, I am in no way stating that runny noses are not caused by being too cold or inadequate husbandry/damp/cold conditions as we all know they are. I am one of those that is always looking to learn about tortoises and wanted to share this added information with you all, as I wouldn't have known/thought that otherwise if my vet hadn't shared with me.

 

[John]

Heck, we've hashed this over ad naseum John

I suppose it can't hurt to reiterate some of my thoughts.

Research has shown that most tortoises (including leopards) are most active during the growing season, when temps are warm (but not stifling hot) and water is abundant. This is the time when they grow and add rings. It also follows that the air will be relatively humid during these times. When the rain stops falling, things stop growing, and the tort will become inactive and grow less. The air will dry out, but this won't have a negative effect on the tortoises growth because.... its not growing! The new growth ring firms up and that ring is "set".

This means warm, wet, humid= active growing tort
cold, dry = inactive, non-growing tort
hot, dry = inactive, non-growing tort

Start mixing things up, say feeding them lots of nutritious food when its too dry, feed them little food while its warm and humid, keep them cold and humid, etc, and things go wrong. They get sick, they pyramid, whatever.

As to climate being a factor, hell yes, I've been thinking that for a long time brother

If we consider the conditions that we expect to lead to pyramiding, being hot and dry, and the kind of environment that would be, with little cover available, the pyramided tortoise would have an advantage over the smooth, and be less likely to overheat with prolonged excursions under direct sun.

Yeah Brett I know we been all over the pyramid thing, but I'm not thinking along the same lines as we have debated before.My line of thinking is not what works or doesn't work but why?So I think what is it that is so diferent in captivity that an animal can grow completely deformed?I mean in my experience with animals of all types the one thing they are good at is survival its what they do.Can an animal that lives and survives in the harsh climates of Africa really be so easily thrown off?Some say this causes pyramiding some say that, some say balance works others say extreme hydration, I'm thinking what if its the one thing we can not reproduce the changing climate, Daily temperature fluctuation variying humidity. To be continued.......

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I think just about anything, if out of balance, could contribute to pyramiding...I'd like to hear more about what your thinking on that.

As far as the temperature tolerance debate goes...I don't know which would be more tollerant, I would go as far as to say that neither "type" is more tollerant or hardier than the other. It would seem that the South African type would be more cold tolerant (meaning they prefer colder temperatures as apposed to warm temperatures, not that they can survive colder temperatures), but to what extent has this been tested or researched? South Africa may typically have cooler temperatures than other parts of Africa, but then there are other parts of Africa where leopards live, known comonly as the babcocki range, where it could get just as cold. And I'm talking about just ambient temperatures, which don't consider the internal temperatures of the tortoises.

I was talking to my vet about this the other day, he was telling me about a friend of his who was hiking in East Africa. One morning there was frost all over the ground, he was preparing breakfast when a leopard tortoise walked through the camp. The tortoises shell was covered in frost, and it stopped to eat some of the weeds. He said the tortoise was no more than 15 inches.

I just find it more then interesting that a person who studies south african leopard tortoises in south africa states that THE cause of runny nose in south africa is cold and dampness.

 

[John]

So this is gonna become my random thought thread. Here's this mornings ramblings.Something I have not heard much talk about is how pyramiding happens I.E. does the growing scute pull the bone with it or is the bone pushing the scute?I have begun to think that if constant spaying with water can stop pyramiding, is this due too the moisture or is it due to the fact that when you spray you cool the carapace and the core temp of the tort to some degree.Going back to the rainy season dry season thing, if you look at recorded weather patterns in the range of leopards you will see that most areas do not recieve alot of rain, so the idea that hatchlings spend most of thier time in burrows that are humid may not be correct, Although these burrows would hold humidity longer into the dry season unless they were very deep they would eventually dry as well. Whoops late for work see ya's next time.

 

[Balboa]

My thinking is that it comes down to the pliancy of the scute, I think that is something that Andy Highfield has suggested that rings true. The growth I see in my torts goes along with this theory.

If the scute material remains pliant by being heavily hydrated it can adjust its shape as the tortoise grows. If it is rigid, it forces its shape on the growing bone, (bone density is a result of pressure).

Mark used an analogy once of stiff, fitted sheets popping off a bed as the bed "grew" once. The sheets would stack into a pyramid. Had the sheets been soft instead of stiff, rather than pop off they would simply lay out flat.

My simple answer to why torts won't necessarily pyramid during dry spells in nature... they stop growing. They do most of their growing while the scutes are pliant.