coil-shaped CFL revisited
- Thread starter BrianWI
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Not true. The story you are repeating is what the manufacturer would like us to believe. Unfortunately, we see cases of eyes being burned here on a regular basis. We have had MANY discussion about this over the years. Not all the bulbs cause this problem. The leading theory is that the shipping process can cause micro fractures in the interior phosphor coating in the sharp corners and bends which allows UVC to escape. Since no one with a multimillion dollar lab and a trained staff wants to donate their time to studying this problem, we do not have a definitive scientifically proven reason for why some of these bulbs burn tortoise eyes and some don't. We only know that some percentage of tortoises kept under any of these cfl type bulbs end up with burned eyes. We see it here all the time.
saginawhxc
Well-Known Member
Well I got my first tortoise in March and the little guy came home acting fine. Within a couple of days he wouldn't open his eyes underneath his CFL UVB light. After a week of said problem somebody here pointed me to Mercury Vapor bulbs. Problem went instantly away. Maybe the problem was fixed... Maybe it wasn't. Whatever the date in the study says there are others here with similar stories. I'll go with Mercury Vapor bulbs and will continue to suggest to others that they are the correct choice.
We're still seeing issues with the coil shaped bulbs. I think it may be because the old, bad bulbs were not recalled and are still on the stores' shelves.
saginawhxc
Well-Known Member
That bulb was thrown out months ago, but I'm guessing your smart enough to assume that.
I am not an electrical engineer, but I am a guy who had a tortoise who was developing a possible problem. People on this site gave me what they said were a fix to this problem, and that fix cleared up my problem. Will I ever know as a fact that the bulb was causing the problem, or that his new bulb fixed it? No, but I will take my experience, add it in with the experience of others here, and then make a reasonable conclusion. Maybe there is a problem and maybe there isn't. All I'm trying to say is maybe you shouldn't just instantly dismiss the collective experience of so many here.
I guess the problem I have is I find some of the best advice givers here seem almost myopic on this subject. As soon as coil is mentioned, the discussion stops in looking for a possible problem. I have watched that on dozens of occasions her the past six months since I decided to make this one of my causes to follow on the forum.
I do use coil bulb and have for over 6 years now. Have used over 20 in that time with no problems. I do use a UV meter and do watch things constantly. I find the application especially for hatchling aquatic turtles, is a good fit. I like a basking area with a UVI of about 2.5 - 3 in a small basking area. I get that with a coil about 7" above turtle level. I can put a small fixture with an incandescent immediately next to it, and have a small spot of UV and minimize the excess a long tube would produce with associated algae production, or the heat of the MVB.
I participated in a thread exactly like this in about Jan of this year. I tried to bring up the issues that also cause eye problem and hoped the coil thing did stop people from looking for other causes that may have been or are there that could be causing the problem. It became so emotional that the thread was closed. I felt it a valuable discussion despite the emotion, but was closed out of input. I actually was very close to quitting the forum.
I also was told we see examples of the damage every week here. Just go back through or watch the forum for eye problems and I would see the problem. So I did. I researched eye and coil on the forum for the past few years. Spent at least 25 hours making a spreadsheet wit over 100 threads, but was closed out of the discussion as I started to see results, and saw that it seemed the ones most vocal here just did not want to hear.
I found...
-Over 90% of the cases of "eye problems" were leopard tortoises.
-Less than 8% of the time when "eye problems" was brought up was a coil being used.
-Every time a coil bulb was in use there was also obvious problems with heat, or substrate or diet, or UV placement also present.
-Over 80& of the time when coil was found in use, the discussion looking for problems stopped even though at least one other obvious (to me) issue was also present. (even saginawhxc in his original post never mentioned eye problems, just stated he switched yet mentioned nighttime temps at 70 and improving the diet and getting rid of the hay bedding. Also says an instant solution when we know it would take at least few days if that was the only issue. Perhaps other changes he made solved the problem that showed its results at that time?)
-I could not find one example of the coil bulb being shown to be THE issue. (I only went back 2 years in limiting the search. I wanted to see if they STILL create issues)
Other examples since then I can immediately recall=
-Someone with eye problems was immediately asked if using coil. reply was no. he was using 150 watt MVB changed to 8" above substrate right when problem started plus diet issues. No one said anything about that since MVB are "safe" and I then replied to raise the MVB immediately.
-The few times I have seen someone stating eye problems and using coil, the discussion stopped. I jumped in and asked other husbandry questions and there was always other obvious Husbandy issues such as - one feeding one item only with no vit A in it, another with temps way too low for a leopard hatchling.
I KNOW COIL LIGHTS HAVE CREATED PROBLEMS IN THE PAST. I do not refute that. But I do believe we have become too myopic on this site. The most common statement of fact give is that coil bulbs create eye problems. period, end of conversation. That is simply not true. I can prove that as I use coil bulbs and have no issues as do many on the turtle forum I also frequent. Even the bearded dragon website found so many cases were the issue of how UV lights were mounted. With basking branches commonly in use the light was placed where the Beardie could climb right up next to the bulb. And with so small a spot of effective, yet strong UV, it was a bad application as the beardie tried to get as much UV for basking yet, the spot too small to cover the lizard, yet intense at the head.
Tom states the manufacturers are making a ton as these pour off pet shop shelves. With so many of these bulbs out there yet so few POSSIBLE problems I find here and turtle forum websites, I believe the statement needs to be - Coil bulbs MAY very rarely, cause problems - so is it worth the risk? That is why I have never recommended using coil here despite using them myself.
So what am I saying????
Tom is closest to that statement when he weighs in on coil bulbs. He also normally asks for more input on temps, substrate, diet, etc. I believe we also should see the issues with the proper placement of ANY UV source, not just the type and stop there. This thread became emotional again, immediately. Let's start giving the same great advice here when asked about UVB coil bulbs as we do with most any other husbandry issues and not stop all comments and help and suggestions to help the tortoise as soon as the word COIL is mentioned.
Just my thoughts, but I've spent tons of hours researching everything I can find - the data, studies, and the actual cases here.
I do use coil bulb and have for over 6 years now. Have used over 20 in that time with no problems. I do use a UV meter and do watch things constantly. I find the application especially for hatchling aquatic turtles, is a good fit. I like a basking area with a UVI of about 2.5 - 3 in a small basking area. I get that with a coil about 7" above turtle level. I can put a small fixture with an incandescent immediately next to it, and have a small spot of UV and minimize the excess a long tube would produce with associated algae production, or the heat of the MVB.
I participated in a thread exactly like this in about Jan of this year. I tried to bring up the issues that also cause eye problem and hoped the coil thing did stop people from looking for other causes that may have been or are there that could be causing the problem. It became so emotional that the thread was closed. I felt it a valuable discussion despite the emotion, but was closed out of input. I actually was very close to quitting the forum.
I also was told we see examples of the damage every week here. Just go back through or watch the forum for eye problems and I would see the problem. So I did. I researched eye and coil on the forum for the past few years. Spent at least 25 hours making a spreadsheet wit over 100 threads, but was closed out of the discussion as I started to see results, and saw that it seemed the ones most vocal here just did not want to hear.
I found...
-Over 90% of the cases of "eye problems" were leopard tortoises.
-Less than 8% of the time when "eye problems" was brought up was a coil being used.
-Every time a coil bulb was in use there was also obvious problems with heat, or substrate or diet, or UV placement also present.
-Over 80& of the time when coil was found in use, the discussion looking for problems stopped even though at least one other obvious (to me) issue was also present. (even saginawhxc in his original post never mentioned eye problems, just stated he switched yet mentioned nighttime temps at 70 and improving the diet and getting rid of the hay bedding. Also says an instant solution when we know it would take at least few days if that was the only issue. Perhaps other changes he made solved the problem that showed its results at that time?)
-I could not find one example of the coil bulb being shown to be THE issue. (I only went back 2 years in limiting the search. I wanted to see if they STILL create issues)
Other examples since then I can immediately recall=
-Someone with eye problems was immediately asked if using coil. reply was no. he was using 150 watt MVB changed to 8" above substrate right when problem started plus diet issues. No one said anything about that since MVB are "safe" and I then replied to raise the MVB immediately.
-The few times I have seen someone stating eye problems and using coil, the discussion stopped. I jumped in and asked other husbandry questions and there was always other obvious Husbandy issues such as - one feeding one item only with no vit A in it, another with temps way too low for a leopard hatchling.
I KNOW COIL LIGHTS HAVE CREATED PROBLEMS IN THE PAST. I do not refute that. But I do believe we have become too myopic on this site. The most common statement of fact give is that coil bulbs create eye problems. period, end of conversation. That is simply not true. I can prove that as I use coil bulbs and have no issues as do many on the turtle forum I also frequent. Even the bearded dragon website found so many cases were the issue of how UV lights were mounted. With basking branches commonly in use the light was placed where the Beardie could climb right up next to the bulb. And with so small a spot of effective, yet strong UV, it was a bad application as the beardie tried to get as much UV for basking yet, the spot too small to cover the lizard, yet intense at the head.
Tom states the manufacturers are making a ton as these pour off pet shop shelves. With so many of these bulbs out there yet so few POSSIBLE problems I find here and turtle forum websites, I believe the statement needs to be - Coil bulbs MAY very rarely, cause problems - so is it worth the risk? That is why I have never recommended using coil here despite using them myself.
So what am I saying????
Tom is closest to that statement when he weighs in on coil bulbs. He also normally asks for more input on temps, substrate, diet, etc. I believe we also should see the issues with the proper placement of ANY UV source, not just the type and stop there. This thread became emotional again, immediately. Let's start giving the same great advice here when asked about UVB coil bulbs as we do with most any other husbandry issues and not stop all comments and help and suggestions to help the tortoise as soon as the word COIL is mentioned.
Just my thoughts, but I've spent tons of hours researching everything I can find - the data, studies, and the actual cases here.
Unless you members, that insist they are safe, have an interest in these coil bulbs, what's your problem with this forum warning people about what they have done to torts eyes and continue to do! We have seen it happen way too many times, before they were "fixed" and after they were "fixed". The bulbs are changed and usually not instantly, but with in time the eyes are corrected. The ones who have instant results, may have caught it sooner then others.
So, again, what's the big problem if it's not taking money out of your pockets and the advice to not use them, is not hurting a tortoise?
On the other side, from what we have seen too many times of what these bulbs have done, we would be a very bad forum to suggest they are fine, knowing we still see threads where they cause problems.
If you use them, fine, good for you. Hope you never do have a problem. However, if you do ever have a problem, make sure you let us know that too.
I'd rather play it on the safe side and hope others stick with that too.
So, again, what's the big problem if it's not taking money out of your pockets and the advice to not use them, is not hurting a tortoise?
On the other side, from what we have seen too many times of what these bulbs have done, we would be a very bad forum to suggest they are fine, knowing we still see threads where they cause problems.
If you use them, fine, good for you. Hope you never do have a problem. However, if you do ever have a problem, make sure you let us know that too.
I'd rather play it on the safe side and hope others stick with that too.
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I get what he's saying, Barb. He says once we hear the dreaded term "coiled bulbs" we quit looking for other problems. We need to be a little more open-minded and look at all the factors in the sick tortoise's care, and ask them to make the changes one at a time with a week or so in between changes. Thank you, Mark.
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Barb, I did not say that at all. Nowhere in my post did I say they are safe. But you state as fact "what THEY have done to Tortoises eyes and continue to do!" That is not a fact - that is a conclusion. There are several things that cause eye problems in tortoises. Since 90% of the "eye problem" cases reported here on the forum that I found, did NOT include a coil bulb, then why do we just look to coil bulbs and STOP THERE? This is an emotional issue for so many because questioning our beliefs is emotional. The amount of times COIL is mentioned on this forum builds constantly on everyone's PERCEPTION. If eye problem is mentioned in 100 posts, coil is always brought up 100 times. Not diet, not substrate, not temperatures, not start techniques. Although all are brought up and some quite frequently, only coil is ALWAYS brought up. But it turned out that only 8 of those time will a coil bulb be actually used, and of those 8 other issues seem to also be as equally a causing culprit. That means to our emotional side there has been 100 times the coil issue has surfaced again, yet it was only 8 time it was even present!!! THERE"S SO MUCH WE COULD LEARN.
Why are 90% of eye problems leopard tortoises? I have never seen that brought up or realized since we are so focused on COIL.
Are tortoises, especially leopards, susceptible to Vitamin A deficiencies?
What role does low humidity play in eye irritations, especially hatchlings?
How many eye issues are the result of incorrect placement of UV lighting? Are tortoises even susceptible to UVB (not UVC) overexposure?
How many ask if it is one eye or both affected? That would usually indicate an injury, abrasion as opposed to other problems, but we have not learned to ask that question.
Foreign bodies in the eye are a frequent problem from some type beddings used. Is that question being asked?
Did you know if a hibernating / brumating tortoise gets cold enough, it's eyes can begin to freeze and can form a cataract?
So why is it that coil is brought up 100% of the time at the exclusion of other possibles, when coil rarely is even present? Yet the other issues above are almost always present?
If you look up "eye problems in tortoises" on the internet, Coil bulbs come up in a very few instances. Most of the above come up all the time, yet do not come up here.
So many good contributors here, recommend eye drops and the baby food soaks that seem to work a great percentage of the time. That seems to point to Vitamin A or irritation, as the main contributor.
Since a vast majority of cases are hatchlings, the hatchling failure syndrome with poor renal function could also be a big issue. I personally believe leopards are the most common victim of hatchling failure syndrome as they may be even more sensitive to humidity issues upon hatching, yet treated so commonly as a "dry species"
Think about the wrath @Tom endured when he was proposing and even posting results of humidity as the primary cause of pyramiding. Everyone KNEW and immediately jumped on diet and/or fast growth when pyramiding was brought up. End of discussion. It's only by looking beyond those accepted "causes" since he saw so many examples of pyramiding when those cases were not present, and cases when they were present but no pyramiding! I believe we are seeing a similar thing here if we look. Way too many cases where eye issues are there but no coil! Way too many cases where there is a coil present but no eye issues. Way too many cases where eye issues plus coil, yet no improvement until other changes were made.
MY PROBLEM WITH COIL, Barb, is that all these issues are not being raised to the degree I believe they should be. It is insulting for you to imply I have something to gain from the Coil Bulb Manufacturers, when I am sticking my neck out to the wrath of my many friends here on the forum because I CARE ABOUT THE TORTOISES.
saginawhxc
Well-Known Member
Twice my use of the word "instantly" has been brought up. It was a poor choice of wording. It was late, I was tired. It didn't happen instantly. It didn't happen magically. For all I know it had nothing to do with bulbs. It probably had to do with the simple fact he didn't want to look at me while I was wearing my tinfoil hat.
All I really know is I don't have the time to really worry about this. I know what works for me and I'm happy with it. I take advice from any source with a grain of salt. Take almost any subject and you will find people that believe strongly in opposite directions. Sometimes you just need to do your research and then make an educated gamble on what you think is best.
I don't believe I ever said anybody was wrong. I just chimed in with my direct experience.
All I really know is I don't have the time to really worry about this. I know what works for me and I'm happy with it. I take advice from any source with a grain of salt. Take almost any subject and you will find people that believe strongly in opposite directions. Sometimes you just need to do your research and then make an educated gamble on what you think is best.
I don't believe I ever said anybody was wrong. I just chimed in with my direct experience.
I'll answer as I've already exposed myself and can be called on actually using coil bulbs. But my whole point is I think issues like this needs to be discussed far beyond is it simply a coil bulb. And stop there.
If you are really asking (although I think you know the answer already) but for others that might be interested, screen does filter UVB. Depends upon the density of the screen, however. The screen normally on top of a reptile vivarium you would buy would filter about 40-50% of the UVB. A 1/4" hardware cloth much less. But even that is not the whole story, as distance affects UVI reading. So its not as simple as cut the distance in half. If I had to rely on artificial UVB and could not provide sunlight, I wouldn't use UV bulbs without a solar meter, especially if I were to experiment with putting something between the light and the tortoise.
why take the risk if there is a proven safer option is my 2 cents?
I think that is exactly what anyone reading this and wondering if they should use coil bulbs should take away from this. In my original reply: "Coil bulbs MAY very rarely, cause problems - so is it worth the risk?"
However, for the great contributors who post replies regularly to help those with questions, my point was meant to bring up a much broader answer.
I try to keep in mind that I was once a lurker here. I joined the forum in 2012 but didn't start posting until 8 months ago. For every question and discussion posted, there are dozens of people reading and trying to make sense of how to properly care for their tortoise, but never post, or ask the question. So our answers need to as much as possible be informative and try to honestly cover the issue at hand and try to not let the silent readers draw incorrect conclusions and miss applications they may feel is similar.
Assuming CFL's were safe to use, what are the advantages of using these over florescent uvb tubes?
I totally agree, we are all here for the benefit of our torts, be it lurking or a moderator. i hope that manufacturers have solved the problem, however until its 100% , and shelfs have been cleared of 'bad stock' ... is it worth the risk is my thoughts is all
I only have hearsay evidence, but I've heard the compact fluorescent bulbs don't put out much UVB.
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