Collecting tortoises from the wild

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GBtortoises

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The reason that we don't see tortoises below 4" is because of the FDA law enacted in 1975. The reason that we see tortoises of many species as close to 4" without going under that mark is because many more can be fit into a shipping crate than if they were larger animals. Importers clearly realize the benefit of that.

It's interesting that while there are supposedly Russian and other tortoises being raised on farms all those that are imported have all the "wear and tear" and ersion markings of a wild animal.
 

-EJ

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These farm have free range pens set up in similar habitat that you would find in their native range.

Have you gotten any of these farmed animals? Particularly the Eastern Hermanns and Marginateds?

The farmed RFs are kept under similar conditions.

On the Egyptians... I've only seen photos but they have been breeding them for well over 25 years and they are amazing.

I know for a fact that an adult is way more desirable than a 4 inch animal. A dealer would much rather sell a 10 inch Russian than 3 4inch animals and that dealer could easily get 3 times the price for the larger animal.

GBtortoises said:
The reason that we don't see tortoises below 4" is because of the FDA law enacted in 1975. The reason that we see tortoises of many species as close to 4" without going under that mark is because many more can be fit into a shipping crate than if they were larger animals. Importers clearly realize the benefit of that.

It's interesting that while there are supposedly Russian and other tortoises being raised on farms all those that are imported have all the "wear and tear" and ersion markings of a wild animal.


So you haven't seen the incubators or the hatchling facilities?

There are a couple of farms in Slovenia that I know of two people that visited and took extensive series of photos.



GBtortoises said:
Anfi said:
GBtortoises said:
There are supposedly farms breeding Russian tortoises.
There are no farms breeding russian tortoises. Come on! 99% of tortoises are wild caught except a few breeders in US and Europe. There were some efforts to make a "farm" in Uzbekistan in 2001 but all they did were collecting eggs (from the wild) and raising juvenilles.

I agree, that is why I used the term "supposedly"!

I think the "farms", which I have seen photos of, are simply holding and/or growing facilities for tortoises captured in the wild.
 

GBtortoises

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So far the only supposedly "farmed" tortoises that I've seen have been pyramided and obviously raised as quickly as possible to get them up to 4". I don't think that method is doing the tortoises any favors. Of those pyramided ones many are still for sale, many months later. I'm guessing that is because most people find them unattractive.

The question that I have with the "adult size being preferred" theory is that the bulk of Russians aren't being imported for breeders. They're being imported to be mega chain pet shop staples which is where most of them do end up. Try asking their reptile "experts" some care questions. By the time they get done telling me what to feed it and how to care for it I'm usually laughing so hard I have stomach pains! I never buy, I just like to taunt them. It's my deranged form of entertainment.

Yes, I've saw photos a few years back of holding facilities and pens where they're raising hundreds of tortoises. Did you ever wonder how and what they're feeding these thousands of tortoises? All supposedly in Slovenia. I wonder why just that country? The same place that "Slovenian" Hermann's came from a few years back. Which were found to be smuggled into that country from neighboring countries where they were illegal to collect. Maybe Slovenia has become the Switzerland of the tortoise exchange world.

If you have the photos saved please post them. I never kept any after I first saw them. I'm sure people would be interested.

While I did see the photos, I could not at the time find out if they were legitimate or who actually visited the farms. So if you have anything post it or send me an email. I'm always interested in gaining more information on the subject.

Hey just found the pics on www.ReptileForum.co.uk

Same pics I saw a couple of years ago. I question whether this is a facility where wild caught females a gathered to lay eggs or there is actual breeding going on.
 

-EJ

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One set was taken last year and one set the year before (those on RFUK).

They are not only breeding tortoises but lizards as well. It sounds and looks impressive.

You know of the farms in the Honduras? They are spitting out thousands of leopards... with nowhere to go but Europe... or so I hear.

I suspect you are talking about the Western Hermans that were reciently imported. While they were not as nice as some of the other stuff they are no worse than a 4 year old that was born and raised in the states. I've yet to see a captive raised Testudo of decent size for sale that is remarkable.

GBtortoises said:
So far the only supposedly "farmed" tortoises that I've seen have been pyramided and obviously raised as quickly as possible to get them up to 4". I don't think that method is doing the tortoises any favors. Of those pyramided ones many are still for sale, many months later. I'm guessing that is because most people find them unattractive.

The question that I have with the "adult size being preferred" theory is that the bulk of Russians aren't being imported for breeders. They're being imported to be mega chain pet shop staples which is where most of them do end up. Try asking their reptile "experts" some care questions. By the time they get done telling me what to feed it and how to care for it I'm usually laughing so hard I have stomach pains! I never buy, I just like to taunt them. It's my deranged form of entertainment.

Yes, I've saw photos a few years back of holding facilities and pens where they're raising hundreds of tortoises. Did you ever wonder how and what they're feeding these thousands of tortoises? All supposedly in Slovenia. I wonder why just that country? The same place that "Slovenian" Hermann's came from a few years back. Which were found to be smuggled into that country from neighboring countries where they were illegal to collect. Maybe Slovenia has become the Switzerland of the tortoise exchange world.

If you have the photos saved please post them. I never kept any after I first saw them. I'm sure people would be interested.

While I did see the photos, I could not at the time find out if they were legitimate or who actually visited the farms. So if you have anything post it or send me an email. I'm always interested in gaining more information on the subject.

Hey just found the pics on www.ReptileForum.co.uk

Same pics I saw a couple of years ago. I question whether this is a facility where wild caught females a gathered to lay eggs or there is actual breeding going on.

 

GBtortoises

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-EJ said:
One set was taken last year and one set the year before (those on RFUK).

They are not only breeding tortoises but lizards as well. It sounds and looks impressive.

You know of the farms in the Honduras? They are spitting out thousands of leopards... with nowhere to go but Europe... or so I hear.

I suspect you are talking about the Western Hermans that were reciently imported. While they were not as nice as some of the other stuff they are no worse than a 4 year old that was born and raised in the states. I've yet to see a captive raised Testudo of decent size for sale that is remarkable.

GBtortoises said:
So far the only supposedly "farmed" tortoises that I've seen have been pyramided and obviously raised as quickly as possible to get them up to 4". I don't think that method is doing the tortoises any favors. Of those pyramided ones many are still for sale, many months later. I'm guessing that is because most people find them unattractive.

The question that I have with the "adult size being preferred" theory is that the bulk of Russians aren't being imported for breeders. They're being imported to be mega chain pet shop staples which is where most of them do end up. Try asking their reptile "experts" some care questions. By the time they get done telling me what to feed it and how to care for it I'm usually laughing so hard I have stomach pains! I never buy, I just like to taunt them. It's my deranged form of entertainment.

Yes, I've saw photos a few years back of holding facilities and pens where they're raising hundreds of tortoises. Did you ever wonder how and what they're feeding these thousands of tortoises? All supposedly in Slovenia. I wonder why just that country? The same place that "Slovenian" Hermann's came from a few years back. Which were found to be smuggled into that country from neighboring countries where they were illegal to collect. Maybe Slovenia has become the Switzerland of the tortoise exchange world.

If you have the photos saved please post them. I never kept any after I first saw them. I'm sure people would be interested.

While I did see the photos, I could not at the time find out if they were legitimate or who actually visited the farms. So if you have anything post it or send me an email. I'm always interested in gaining more information on the subject.

Hey just found the pics on www.ReptileForum.co.uk

Same pics I saw a couple of years ago. I question whether this is a facility where wild caught females a gathered to lay eggs or there is actual breeding going on.





Yes, some of those that I'm talking about were the recent Westerns, along with Marginateds, Ibera and some Easterns and Dalmatians. They looked as pyramided, or worse than the recent Westerns.

As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4".

Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.

I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.
 

-EJ

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... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...

Again, I've spoken with people who have visited. It would seem that some people just don't want to believe one way or the other that it is possible.

GBtortoises said:
As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4".

Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.

I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.
 

GBtortoises

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-EJ said:
... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...

Again, I've spoken with people who have visited. It would seem that some people just don't want to believe one way or the other that it is possible.

GBtortoises said:
As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4".

Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.

I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.

I rarely ever have any tortoises for sale that reach 4". Almost all of mine are sold as hatchlings or yearlings. The ones I mentioned are those kept here for future breeding groups.

Again, more photos, especially some that prove what is actually taking place, not just a holding facility and a photo of a Hermann's nesting, along with names, physical addresses and first hand accounts would make me a believer.

A half dozen of the same photos that have been circulating for years with no first hand accounts or physical proof only makes me think I'm looking at another Loch Ness Monster.

I think we've beat this thread to death. So my last words are similiar to my first in this thread:

I do not agree with widespread mass collecting of species that are readily available in large numbers by means of captive breeding, whether on farms or by private breeders. Some, many, maybe all species will continue to be collected in the wild to some degree I'm sure. I believe that only two factors can control that degree. The first being the collector/importer side which is motivated by money only. The second being the members of the reptile community which is the root of the demand.

I'm stepping of my soapbox now.
 

-EJ

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Your entitled to your opinion... but the readers need to be aware that it is an opinion.

GBtortoises said:
-EJ said:
... and how much do you sell 4+ inch Eastern Hermans, Marginateds for...

Again, I've spoken with people who have visited. It would seem that some people just don't want to believe one way or the other that it is possible.

GBtortoises said:
As far as them looking "no worse than 4 year olds born and raised in the states." I guess that all depends upon who is raising them. None of mine look at all like that and I know many others that don't either. But then I'm not trying to rush their growth to get them to 4".

Bottom line for me is I'd like to believe that all these farms are real and will make a positive impact on wild caught populations. But so far it's the same half dozen photos, no details, no person that has seen it with their own eyes and no real proof that they are what they say they are.

I'd like to believe in Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster too but for the same reasons I can't.

I rarely ever have any tortoises for sale that reach 4". Almost all of mine are sold as hatchlings or yearlings. The ones I mentioned are those kept here for future breeding groups.

Again, more photos, especially some that prove what is actually taking place, not just a holding facility and a photo of a Hermann's nesting, along with names, physical addresses and first hand accounts would make me a believer.

A half dozen of the same photos that have been circulating for years with no first hand accounts or physical proof only makes me think I'm looking at another Loch Ness Monster.

I think we've beat this thread to death. So my last words are similiar to my first in this thread:

I do not agree with widespread mass collecting of species that are readily available in large numbers by means of captive breeding, whether on farms or by private breeders. Some, many, maybe all species will continue to be collected in the wild to some degree I'm sure. I believe that only two factors can control that degree. The first being the collector/importer side which is motivated by money only. The second being the members of the reptile community which is the root of the demand.

I'm stepping of my soapbox now.
 
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