Common keeping errors

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences

I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common things to avoid, with a brief reasoning why, I encourage anyone to do more in depth research on this forum into any of the points raised if your interested in doing so

First up, inappropriate housing

Incorrect temperatures

Bad diets


Incorrect/dangerous equipment









Bad substrates








The wrong source of purchase/information


Not enough soaks

Free roaming

Dangerous cohabitation



Bad water dishes

Dangerous animal interaction



please do feel free to add any you think I’ve missed below!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Also just to add, some of these I didn’t even know were hazards myself before joining this forum! Most of the information on this thread, I’ve learnt from the amazing members here

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

This is a good addition to @Tom s beginner mistakes thread: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

 

[Tim Carlisle]

That was really well put together, especially for folks with short attention spans and don't like to read (let alone comprehend) a wall of text.

I'd love to share this if that ok with you. I know a ton of folks who can use some of this info. I expect I'll get a LOT of blowback for some of it, especially the keeping in pairs, free roaming the house, and the whole dog thing. But after 30 years of wedded bliss, I can handle an argument. lol

 

[Pák]

Thank you for the work hours you put into creating this

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

That was really well put together, especially for folks with short attention spans and don't like to read (let alone comprehend) a wall of text.

I'd love to share this if that ok with you. I know a ton of folks who can use some of this info. I expect I'll get a LOT of blowback for some of it, especially the keeping in pairs, free roaming the house, and the whole dog thing. But after 30 years of wedded bliss, I can handle an argument. lol

Thank you very much for saying this! I definitely like to cater to visual learners because I find it so helpful myself! Like you say, sometimes walls of text can feel a little overwhelming.

Yes you can absolutely share this! Hopefully it helps someone out there

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Thank you for the work hours you put into creating this

Was my pleasure

 

[Markw84]

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences

I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common things to avoid, with a brief reasoning why, I encourage anyone to do more in depth research on this forum into any of the points raised if your interested in doing so

First up, inappropriate housing
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Incorrect temperatures
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Bad diets
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Incorrect/dangerous equipment
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Bad substrates
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The wrong source of purchase/information
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Not enough soaks
View attachment 377328
Free roaming
View attachment 377329
Dangerous cohabitation
View attachment 377330
View attachment 377331
View attachment 377332
Bad water dishes
View attachment 377333
Dangerous animal interaction
View attachment 377337
View attachment 377336

please do feel free to add any you think I’ve missed below!

LRBRH:

Would you mind sending me the file you have these pictures in? Hopefully photoshop? I like a lot of what you have done here and want to create a display for my reptile show booth, or perhaps a booklet/notebook folks can page through. No need to redo all this work! I like the visual appeal of the info.

[email protected]

Thank you!

Mark

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

LRBRH:

Would you mind sending me the file you have these pictures in? Hopefully photoshop? I like a lot of what you have done here and want to create a display for my reptile show booth, or perhaps a booklet/notebook folks can page through. No need to redo all this work! I like the visual appeal of the info.

[email protected]

Thank you!

Mark

Yes I can absolutely do that! I actually created these on my phone using instagram lol, but I’ll attach the images for you in the email, hopefully they’ll come up for you

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Some temperate species specific mistakes that came to my mind:

• Thinking that they get all their water from their food. This is based in old advice and results in not soaking, or even not offering a waterdish.
• Keeping the substrate dry (=no micro climate) and thinking that 20-30% humidity is fine, they are from the desert after all right?
• Uncontrolled temperatures during brumation. Worst case scenario, tortoise freezes underground without the owner having any clue. Or temps are too warm and the tortoise wakes up, maybe even eats during brumation. I have seen some letting their tortoises "brumate" in room temps.
• Keeping their tortoise out at night without properly insulated shelter when it is too cold. Often resulting in RI symptoms, before realizing the mistake.

All these come from old advice and beginners assumptions about their natural habitat, which doesn't transfer all that well into captive care.

 

[ryan57]

I understand that generally these things are true. That said, when it comes to "roaming" or being "loose" there needs to be further clarification IMHO.

Are Tom's trained, unleashed dogs on set considered "loose" when sitting at his side? I would argue not.

Similarly, if your entire impenetrably FENCED, secure large yard is free of debris (unfortunately we all have wind and most people here do not have bird netting above their outdoor enclosures in the photos I've seen) and the tortoise is supervised on top of that, they are not to be considered roaming or loose. Think about it, if you want to use the word roaming or loose in that manner, they roam their 8x4 indoor enclosure and are loose...

I agree more than you expressed in your document that ALL gravel and small stones need to be removed from their enclosure no matter the size or location but also temper that data with the premise that I've read here lately on the forum that"'if it fits (in their mouth) it sh!ts". Have I started a Stump rock collection in a mason jar to remind myself of how diligent one must be about minimizing the stone intake? yes. That said, there is not a MFing or GDarned thing you can do when they are in their burrow excavating so yes... there is that; which negates the OCD approach that we see from many people.

Is it dangerous to walk a large tortoise under direct supervision? Yes. It is required for large stubborn species? Yes/Maybe.

My larger one has always been and always will be a walker. My little one at one year is only beginning to use a larger portion of the 50'x50' yard fenced with 4 gauge hog fence smaller in diameter than his or her carapace and completely protected from above with bird netting.

The larger one has 2 fenced acres now in total, walks the road (because you can't train tortoises and I was curious one day where he would go and found out), he sits at the back gate and looks around for me when he wants to go to the lower fenced yard or the swale behind the houses, walks the 1 acre retention pond with no fence and a 12 acre park about 3 minutes from the house. Arguably he is not "loose" or "roaming" but rather "walked". It is a PITA like watching a toddler? Yes. Does it take much time? Yes. Is that amount of walking required for their digestive health? Maybe.

Is an apple tag / tile or RF tracking device to be used on any tortoise let outside even in an enclosure? ABSOLUTELY!! Learned the hard way on this one. GE silicone 1 as Tom suggested works well. for RF transmitter it is located beneath their right rear leg and the apple tag when size appropriate is on the rear of the carapace if taking a walk.

Are daily soaks needed? They are definitely enjoyed by the big one for between 45 minutes and 1.5hrs and absolutely hated by the small one but still done daily for both.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Some temperate species specific mistakes that came to my mind:

• Thinking that they get all their water from their food. This is based in old advice and results in not soaking, or even not offering a waterdish.
• Keeping the substrate dry (=no micro climate) and thinking that 20-30% humidity is fine, they are from the desert after all right?
• Uncontrolled temperatures during brumation. Worst case scenario, tortoise freezes underground without the owner having any clue. Or temps are too warm and the tortoise wakes up, maybe even eats during brumation. I have seen some letting their tortoises "brumate" in room temps.
• Keeping their tortoise out at night without properly insulated shelter when it is too cold. Often resulting in RI symptoms, before realizing the mistake.

All these come from old advice and beginners assumptions about their natural habitat, which doesn't transfer all that well into captive care.

These are really good additions! Thank you!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I understand that generally these things are true. That said, when it comes to "roaming" or being "loose" there needs to be further clarification IMHO.

Are Tom's trained, unleashed dogs on set considered "loose" when sitting at his side? I would argue not.

Similarly, if your entire impenetrably FENCED, secure large yard is free of debris (unfortunately we all have wind and most people here do not have bird netting above their outdoor enclosures in the photos I've seen) and the tortoise is supervised on top of that, they are not to be considered roaming or loose. Think about it, if you want to use the word roaming or loose in that manner, they roam their 8x4 indoor enclosure and are loose...

I agree more than you expressed in your document that ALL gravel and small stones need to be removed from their enclosure no matter the size or location but also temper that data with the premise that I've read here lately on the forum that"'if it fits (in their mouth) it sh!ts". Have I started a Stump rock collection in a mason jar to remind myself of how diligent one must be about minimizing the stone intake? yes. That said, there is not a MFing or GDarned thing you can do when they are in their burrow excavating so yes... there is that; which negates the OCD approach that we see from many people.

Is it dangerous to walk a large tortoise under direct supervision? Yes. It is required for large stubborn species? Yes/Maybe.

My larger one has always been and always will be a walker. My little one at one year is only beginning to use a larger portion of the 50'x50' yard fenced with 4 gauge hog fence smaller in diameter than his or her carapace and completely protected from above with bird netting.

The larger one has 2 fenced acres now in total, walks the road (because you can't train tortoises and I was curious one day where he would go and found out), he sits at the back gate and looks around for me when he wants to go to the lower fenced yard or the swale behind the houses, walks the 1 acre retention pond with no fence and a 12 acre park about 3 minutes from the house. Arguably he is not "loose" or "roaming" but rather "walked". It is a PITA like watching a toddler? Yes. Does it take much time? Yes. Is that amount of walking required for their digestive health? Maybe.

Is an apple tag / tile or RF tracking device to be used on any tortoise let outside even in an enclosure? ABSOLUTELY!! Learned the hard way on this one. GE silicone 1 as Tom suggested works well. for RF transmitter it is located beneath their right rear leg and the apple tag when size appropriate is on the rear of the carapace if taking a walk.

Are daily soaks needed? They are definitely enjoyed by the big one for between 45 minutes and 1.5hrs and absolutely hated by the small one but still done daily for both.

You make a good point about needing more clarity on the free roaming, I guess I tried to word it in such a way that makes it clear I mean indoor roams mainly, outside of a place that mimics their natural environment, I should have been clearer about outdoor roaming, again I meant if the space isn’t secure.

With the stones, it was more to highlight people who purposefully add them as decor, or let their tortoise have constant access to a gravelled part of their garden. I understand every small stone that naturally occurs in people’s yard can’t all necessarily be removed.

With dog interaction, I guess it is up to the individual owner to have any kind of interaction closely supervised. But even then there has been dire instances, hence I did want to encourage people to generally avoid it.

With the walking, I think it’s definitely less risky doing it with large species than smaller ones like Russians at least

Tracking devices is a good additional tip! Thank you!

 

[ryan57]

You make a good point about needing more clarity on the free roaming, I guess I tried to word it in such a way that makes it clear I mean indoor roams mainly, outside of a place that mimics their natural environment, I should have been clearer about outdoor roaming, again I meant if the space isn’t secure.

With the stones, it was more to highlight people who purposefully add them as decor, or let their tortoise have constant access to a gravelled part of their garden. I understand every small stone that naturally occurs in people’s yard can’t all necessarily be removed.

With dog interaction, I guess it is up to the individual owner to have any kind of interaction closely supervised. But even then there has been dire instances, hence I did want to encourage people to generally avoid it.

With the walking, I think it’s definitely less risky doing it with large species than smaller ones like Russians at least

Tracking devices is a good additional tip! Thank you!

"With dog interaction, I guess it is up to the individual owner to have any kind of interaction closely supervised. But even then there has been dire instances, hence I did want to encourage people to generally avoid it."

Yikes... I don't in any way agree with allowing dog or cat interaction and even when other well trained dogs are there and I am there I get sooooooo nervous. All it would take is one chomp to his head.

The only thing I will say is that I've seen both a baby bunny and a baby groundhog eating in Stump's enclosure with him. Not dogs but still made me a little nervous of how he may react to them.

Awesome job on what you put together.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

"With dog interaction, I guess it is up to the individual owner to have any kind of interaction closely supervised. But even then there has been dire instances, hence I did want to encourage people to generally avoid it."

Yikes... I don't in any way agree with allowing dog or cat interaction and even when other well trained dogs are there and I am there I get sooooooo nervous. All it would take is one chomp to his head.

The only thing I will say is that I've seen both a baby bunny and a baby groundhog eating in Stump's enclosure with him. Not dogs but still made me a little nervous of how he may react to them.

Awesome job on what you put together.

Sorry I hope my wording wasn’t confusing

I completely agree with you, I don’t agree with letting them interact either as I just don’t think it’s worth there being any risk, like you say, even the most well trained dog could turn too playful in a instant, resulting in a potentially fatal injury

I was referring to when you said about toms dogs being well trained by his side, but I see now you meant it as example on the ‘loose’ roaming side of things lol. I think if any interaction is taking place, it should never be unsupervised under any circumstances, but even then I’ll always discourage it altogether

Thank you so much! I’m glad people like how I’ve done it

 

[SinLA]

This is great thanks!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

This is great thanks!

My pleasure

 

[Pattjunior]

Awesome job!

 

[mojo_1]

To further drive home the don't buy from pet stores. I was in one the other day and they had a tank marked redfoot tortoise. It was dark and cold, had the wrong substrate and incorrect water dish. When I asked to see the tortoise it was a cherry head tortoise. It was cold and it's eyes were stuck shut. I explained to them nicely they need to make some changes and the blew me off. I'm afraid that poor tort will not make it.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Awesome job!

Thank you!