Curly Kale?

[helensky]

I did a bit of research on the net about kale and hermanns, and no-one seems to agree - some put it in the 'spinach' category (ie only sometimes) whilst others say it is perfectly fine to have it regularly. And as we all know the interweb can be rather flakey so I thought I'd ask you guys (yes, i know, also online, but much less flakey )

 

[GBtortoises]

I think what you're referring to as "curly kale" is just kale. I could be wrong. Kale is in the cabbage family which makes it related to broccoli, cauliflower, brussel sprouts and I think spinach too.

I feed my Hermann's and other Northern Mediterraneans kale, spinach and other plants that contain oxilac acid. Not as a large part of their diet, but as an occasional food. While they do contain oxilac acid which in large amounts may not be advisable for tortoises, those same plants also contain several valuable vitamins and minerals.

I don't shy away from it, I just feed it to them sparingly.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Kale is in the family that can cause goiter, and when I looked it up it wasn't high in oxalic acid. Because it can cause goiter, it is something to limit even more than those that contain oxalic acid, in my opinion. I find it buy the lb in braising mix at Whole Foods, and since my tort loves it I buy him a few bites every once in awhile (for a yearling I will buy a handful of it maybe once a month). Variety is key! Spinach would be on my never feed list as there are greens with the same nutrients with lower oxalic acid like collard/mustard/radish/watercress. Turnip greens are great as they are low oxalic acid but similar nutrients to the greens with higher oxalic acid. I feed part lettuces and part greens that have oxalic acid, with a bit of other stuff like butternut squash, pumpkin, cactus pads, Mazuri, Tortoise Diet and Grassland Tortoise Food.

 

[GBtortoises]

HIGH OXALIC ACID CONTENT:
Lambsquarters, beet leaves, purslane leaves, spinach, swiss chard (leaves & stalks), rhubarb, parsley, amaranth leaves, sorrel.

LOW OXALIC ACID CONTENT:
Dandelion greens, most fruits, kale, watercress, escarole, mustard greens, turnip greens, kale, broccoli, tomatoes, asparagus, cabbage, and most greens not mentioned.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Where did you read that dandelion greens and mustard greens are low oxalic acid? I've never found information pointing in that direction. Thanks! As a side note, I would not recommend feeding fruits, broccoli, tomato, asparagus, cabbage, beet leaves, spinach, chard, or parsley (not familiar with purslane, rhubarb, amaranth, and sorrel).

 

[Madkins007]

The 'brassicas' (cabbage, cauliflower, mustard, broccoli, kale, bok choi, etc.- but not spinach) are considered to be mild 'goiterogens', that is, they block some iodine intake and can lead to the development of goiters.

There is NO evidence that this happens in a normal varied diet. The concerns grew out of goiters growing on Aldabaran Tortoises and other species fed mostly on a diet of cabbages and other brassicas.

The thing is- a lot of foods have things that block other nutrients. Oxalates block calcium, calcium and zinc block iron, etc. That is a big reason we try to vary diets as much as reasonable. You mention spinach. Spinach is high in iron, low in calcium- this is great for dietary iron, which our tortoises need... it just should not be a major part of the diet.

Also remember- few animals need EVERY nutrient in EVERY meal, and tortoises are experts in getting what they need from low-nutrient foods. It is OK if some meals are low in iodine as long as other meals are good.

Most of the brassicas, including kale, have a good calciumhosphorous ratio, fiber, and other helpful nutrients. Here is a link to a nutritional analysis of kale- http://www.elook.org/nutrition/vegetables/2501.html (I like elook.org for my nutritional data- nice and handy!)

Even poor cabbage, an often ignored or badmouthed green, has a decent Ca: P and other nutrients. Sure, it is tough and rather tasteless, and not very nutrient rich, but it makes a great belly-filler (if you follow the practice of offering meals with less rich nutrients instead of fasting days)... as long as it is not the main part of the diet or there is iodine in some other foods once in a while.

 

[GBtortoises]

Excellent information Madkins!

Vegetable and Fruit Oxalic Acid Content as a percentage based on a few sources:

USDA/ Dr. Duke/ Litholink
Amaranth 1.09 --- ---
Apples --- --- 0.00
Apricots --- --- 0.00
Asparagus 0.13 --- 0.01
Beans 0.36 0.03 0.02
Beans, Fava --- 0.01 ---
Beans, Garbanzo --- 0.00 ---
Beans, Soy --- 0.08 ---
Beets --- 0.04 0.68
Beet Greens 0.61 --- ---
Blackberries --- --- 0.02
Blueberries --- --- 0.02
Broccoli 0.19 --- 0.00
Brussels Sprouts 0.36 --- 0.00
Cabbage 0.10 0.04 0.00
Carrots 0.50 0.01 0.00
Cauliflower 0.15 0.01 0.00
Celery 0.19 --- 0.02
Chicory 0.21 --- ---
Chard, Swiss --- --- 0.65
Cherries --- --- 0.00
Chives 1.48 --- 0.00
Collards 0.45 --- 0.07
Coriander 0.01 --- ---
Corn, Sweet 0.01 0.01 0.01
Cucumbers 0.02 --- 0.00
Currants, Black --- --- 0.00
Currants, Red --- --- 0.02
Dandelion Greens --- --- 0.02
Dewberries --- --- 0.01
Eggplant 0.19 0.03 0.02
Endive 0.11 --- ---
Escarole --- --- 0.03
Garlic 0.36 --- ---
Gooseberries, Green --- --- 0.09
Kale 0.02 --- 0.01
Lambsquarters --- 30.00 ---
Leeks --- --- 0.09
Lentils --- 0.02 ---
Lettuce 0.33 0.01 0.00
Melons --- --- 0.00
Mushrooms --- --- 0.00
Mustard Greens --- 0.13 0.01
Nectarines --- --- 0.00
Okra 0.05 0.01 0.15
Onion 0.05 0.00 0.00
Parsley 1.70 --- 0.10
Parsnips 0.04 0.02 0.01
Peas 0.05 0.01 0.00
Peaches --- 0.00 0.01
Pears --- --- 0.00
Peppers, Sweet 0.04 0.12 0.02
Pokeweed --- --- 0.48
Potatos 0.05 0.02 0.00
Pumpkin --- 0.04 ---
Purslane 1.31 1.68 ---
Radishes 0.48 0.01 0.00
Raspberries, Black --- --- 0.05
Raspberries, Red --- --- 0.02
Rhubarb (stems) --- 1.34 0.86
Rutabagas 0.03 --- 0.02
Shallots --- 0.00 ---
Sorrel --- 0.30 ---
Spearmint --- 0.00 ---
Spinach 0.97 0.66 0.68
Squash 0.02 --- 0.02
Strawberries --- --- 0.01
Sweet Potatos 0.24 0.10 0.06
Tomatillos --- 0.05 ---
Tomato 0.05 0.03 0.00
Turnips 0.21 --- 0.00
Turnip Greens 0.05 --- ---
Watercress 0.31 --- 0.01

I can copy and paste dozens of charts like the above, most with the same general content quantities but none are ever exactly the same and never will be because the results will always vary depending upon the strain of the plant, the age of the plant when harvested, the soil it was grown in, the environmental conditions that it was grown in, how soon the plant was tested after harvesting and on and on and on. As I'm sure does most other levels of a plant's vitamins and minerals.

Any of the commonly available greens are safe to feed to tortoises as long as the keeper pays attention to what they are feeding them, how much and how often. Of course you would want to feed any plants with known high levels of counterproductive ingredients more sparingly. But many of those same plants have important levels of valuable vitamins and minerals in them. Most of which the benefit of outweigh the more minor "taboo" ingredients. Many of those beneficial plants have been mentioned throughout this thread.

I'm sorry but I don't prescribe to the canned food method of "spring mix" with a pile of powdered vitamins on it to make up for the short comings of a good quality, varied diet. I've seen some results of that method, not pretty.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Thanks for the info you both. Great discussion!

Madkins-Do you have a source for there is no evidence that in a normal varied diet mild goiterogens would be harmful? What in your opinion would be the cutoff for that? For example, could I feed my tort 10% mild goiterogens and 90% other things and have little to no risk? I have always severely limited kale, fed a bit of mustard greens, and not fed any other goiterogens.

GBtortoises-I also would never just feed spring mix, nor any other food or group of foods. I don't think anyone here ever recommends that. I would prefer to feed only weeds and such, but don't have that capability right now, nor do a lot of people on this forum. The 5+ ingredients in spring mix do make a good start to a diet if you have to be feeding grocery greens though....I do add a lot to it, and also rotate the spring mix brands. I would also never give vitamin supplements. I severely limit the amount of good commercial foods I feed (Mazuri and Grassland) because they add vitamins. Torts have a very low nutrient diet in the wild, and with a varied diet (although I do believe in using TNT and pure calcium), the vitamin supplements aren't necessary and I think they carry more risk than benefit. I have seen more info that dandelion greens and mustard greens are high in oxalic acid than that they are low in oxalic acid, so I err on the side of caution due to the nature of these types of test results. As a one tort owner, it makes no sense for me to buy foods that should only be fed occasionally...I only buy what I consider to be the best foods, and can still maintain a lot of variety (well over 20 foods). The problem here is that people see a list of items and think that "oh its on the list so I can buy a head of cabbage for my tort this week", and that is all they feed...they would be better off sticking to the better foods because that head of cabbage is only given to one tort, not 20 (which I then think would be ok). I can buy more variety for my money and have less waste by only buying foods that I can feed as much as I can before it spoils.

Best wishes.

 

[Tom]

I do it the way GB stated way up there in post #2.

 

[Madkins007]

Goiterogens:
I can offer several forms of evidence...
- Goiter is rarely reported in any tortoise other than island giants
- Humans experience goiter as well, and even those prone to it are not told to completely avoid the goiterogens as they offer other useful nutrients
- Dr. Mader's "Reptile Medicine and Surgery" book states that goiterogens can be fed in moderation.
- Keepers around the world feed brassicas as part of the usual diet and get successful breeding, even through several generations, with no goiters. In some parts of the world, brassicas are the most available foods used for tortoise .

Spring Mix:
I tend to avoid spring mix. The 'variety' are usually all rather low-nutrient plants- lots of water, not much else, rather like Iceberg and other lettuces. When I do use it, I try to get the stuff with endive, escarole, or arugula (rocket). I even like the versions with some spinach- at least it offers iron, etc.

 

[helensky]

Thanks guys, I do give them a varied diet and kale etc was always a minor player, and with all the vague and varied information about I was just double checking what I was doing was right.

GB- are all the foods you mentioned from the chart you pasted edible for a Hermann to a degree? Of course there are other things to consider like how often, sugar and oxalic acid etc, but things like shallots and eggplants I hadn't even considered as occasionals!

My tortoises have a variety of the tort- friendly greens that grow in my outdoor enclosure as their staple diet if you like, with things like Kale, Carrot, and a few other bagged bits like watercress (and the odd worm or raspberry they find in their enclosure!) which I can't grow given to vary it occasionally, but it would be nice to know I could go further afield with what I give them.

I was hoping for just a small answer for this so thanks guys for such an interesting discussion!

 

[Ozric]

I'm almost 100% sure that rhubarb is poisonous for tortoises and I think that the beans should not be fed at all either due to excess protein.

Dandellions are quite high in oxalic acid which blocks calcium absorption but dandellions contain a lot of calcium so some of it probably does get absorbed. Also dandellions vary massively in the amount of oxalic acid that they have in them, some plants don't have all that much and others have loads of it. Flowers and stems are worse for oxalic acid but I'm happy to let my tortoises eat them in moderation. At certain times of year I have far more dandellions than I want for tortoise feeding but at those times I have a whole lot of other weeds and plants growing that I feed instead. Some months of the year dandellions will still be available for me but not a huge amount of other stuff in the garden so they get fed more.

I do feed a kale and other brassica foods which I buy but I only use these things when there is nothing much in my garden. So, over a whole year cycle, there isn't a great deal of that kind of stuff being fed.

Useful discussion here and thanks to GB and Madkins especially for their posts. Personally I never feed mazuri or similar products but of course I could be totally wrong in the concerns i have about those foods and its good to have debate.

 

[GBtortoises]

helensky-I'm not suggesting that everything on the list that I posted is desirable for tortoises. It was only to show the oxilac acid content in some of the items that you questioned. The list was merely copied and pasted from another source, as I mentioned right after the list itself. I don't feed mine any of the fruits on that list except for some occasional wild blackberries, blueberries and strawberries when they're ripe around here where I live. But I don't go out of my way to pick them purposely for the tortoises. The only tortoises that I have that get fruit on a regular basis are Redfoots.

I do feed my tortoises eggplant occasionally, as well as several other vegetables. My tortoises are fed a diet of 85% greens of all types (including hay and leaves) and the other 15% vegetables of all types. The only things that I stay away from are foods that are known to be toxic.

By the way, only the leaves of the rhubarb plant are poisonous. Not the stems. The stems are what things like strawberry-rhubarb pie are made out of! As a kid I used to eat rhubarb stems raw out of our garden, packed away alot of them, never any foaming at the mouth or dilerium. I'm still "fairly" normal despite them!

There is no problem feeding legumes (beans, peas) in moderation either. All of my tortoises have always been fed them, some for 20 years now with absolutely no problem. If you read any in depth literature on Mediterranean tortoises diet you'll see that a portion of that diet consists of legumes.

My tortoises also consume large amounts of dandelion in the mid and late summer because they are a very common weed in my area. As is crown vetch, which a legume that they also consume large amounts of.

 

[Madkins007]

I'm almost 100% sure that rhubarb is poisonous for tortoises and I think that the beans should not be fed at all either due to excess protein.

Rhubarb leaves are risky because of high levels of oxalates, but many species of wild tortoises are well-known to eat wild plants so high in oxalates and other things that they are listed as toxic to humans. I'd bet that some torts would enjoy them. (but I AM NOT recommending it!)

The protein bit is based on the mostly disproven theory that protein contributes a lot to pyramiding, but a lot of the wild plants these guys eat are pretty high in protein as well. I know a lot of people include some beans in the diet for various nutrients, and because, darn it, tortoises do need some protein to build muscles, etc. Again- variety and moderation.

Dandellions are quite high in oxalic acid which blocks calcium absorption but dandellions contain a lot of calcium so some of it probably does get absorbed. Also dandellions vary massively in the amount of oxalic acid that they have in them, some plants don't have all that much and others have loads of it. Flowers and stems are worse for oxalic acid but I'm happy to let my tortoises eat them in moderation. At certain times of year I have far more dandellions than I want for tortoise feeding but at those times I have a whole lot of other weeds and plants growing that I feed instead. Some months of the year dandellions will still be available for me but not a huge amount of other stuff in the garden so they get fed more.

White juices and grittiness in leaves are signs of oxalates. The thing is... oxalates only counteract the calcium IN THAT PLANT, they don't reach out and kill all calcium everywhere so if your diet is good, this should not be a problem.

I think that we blow oxalates out of proportion. There is very little evidence that oxalates in moderation are a problem for tortoises that are well-hydrated and otherwise cared for.

I know several people will call 'bladder stones' etc. on me, but vets seem to feel that the main issue with stones is dehydration. Certainly oxalates contribute, but a well-hydrated tortoise just passes them out.

I do feed a kale and other brassica foods which I buy but I only use these things when there is nothing much in my garden. So, over a whole year cycle, there isn't a great deal of that kind of stuff being fed.

Useful discussion here and thanks to GB and Madkins especially for their posts. Personally I never feed mazuri or similar products but of course I could be totally wrong in the concerns i have about those foods and its good to have debate.

The problem I see is that there is an awful lot of theory and emotion in this and similar subjects. I really wish we had more solid research going on for our animals.

Of course, EJ will argue, with good reason, that Mazuri is a product of exactly that sort of research. I would like to see things like a recommended amount of calcium, vitamins, etc. as well as whether or not goiterogens, oxalates, etc. are REALLY a concern.

Ah... to dream!

 

[GBtortoises]

Madkins-As usual, all your information is very well conveyed!

 

[Ozric]

Hi friends

yes I'm familiar with the uses of rhubarb as a human desert food. Usually with loads of sugar added. Chewing on the raw stalks straight from the garden would be a bit sour to say the least. I did say poisonous 'to tortoises' and personally I wouldn't feed the stalk of something whose leaf is poisonous.

Yes mediterranean tortoises do eat leguminous plants of which there are quite a few that can occur in their range. But this is not the same as feeding them a pile of beans. I believe their natural diet would be very low in protein and there are possible problems caused by feeding an excess of it. Without going off into a whole tangent about pyramiding which is another subject, I don't think its 100% caused by a lack of humidity. Wrong diet seems likely to be a factor in it.
I'm not sure that medical science is ever going to invest heavily in tortoise diet research and on that basis I believe there is a
lot to be said for making an effort to mimic what they get in the wild. Human being are not doing too well on manufactured foods so I don't see why I would inflict this on a tortoise.

 

[Madkins007]

Without going off into a whole tangent about pyramiding which is another subject, I don't think its 100% caused by a lack of humidity. Wrong diet seems likely to be a factor in it.

Check out this article: http://africantortoise.com/_sulcatadiet2.pdf

It studies protein, humidity, and other elements in pyramiding. Their results are consistent with others. Humidity may not be 100% the issue, but protein has comparatively little role.

You mention tortoises eating legumes in the wild. In 100 grams of food, green beans, peas, etc. run about 10 grams of protein. Timothy grass runs 54, alfalfa runs 17. Grasses and hays tend to be high in protein, especially the sorts of plants they run into in the wild. This is a reason grazers often add so much muscle mass- lots of protein in the diet.

 

[helensky]

As a kid I used to eat rhubarb stems raw out of our garden, packed away alot of them, never any foaming at the mouth or dilerium. I'm still "fairly" normal despite them!

GB I did that too! In the summer I was sent out to the garden with a knife and a small cup of sugar for dipping, good times!

There is so much conflicting literature, and you all are really good at clarifying and presenting an argument without having to go through reams of the stuff. It really is so reassuring for a bit of a novice like me, who doesn't really have the time to do in-depth reading about this stuff, to have this forum! Thank you guys!

 

[GBtortoises]

helensky--I have to admit, I used to just snap off the rhubarb and eat it like that, never even considered sugar! Maybe I'm just a sour person! Whenever my mother would catch me at it she'd chase me out of the garden because I was always in there eating things up before they could make it to the table!
Life in the country is good.

 

[Ozric]

Mark thanks for that article, I'll certainly check it out. I'm still not convinced about Hermanns eating a lot of high protein plants in the wild. They don't eat grasses. Some leguminous plants do grow in their range and they will eat them but I reckon its nearly all leaf they are getting and very little 'bean'.

Tortoise feeding ideas in the UK tend to be influenced a lot by Andy Highfield of the Tortoise Trust and he's always been very much against the manufactured foods and advocates a high fibre low fat and low protein diet for hermanns. Of course Andy isn't necessariy right about everything, but his ideas do carry a lot of weight here.