D3 diet supplement paper posted here

[Stoneman]

@Tom one thing I noticed in the first article was that it stated that nutrition content with overall lower fiber, and therefore higher carbohydrates, led to more growth. I also saw that higher protein content led to more growth. Could it be that they only eat high fiber foods because that is all that is available in their habitats? I read that in Burma, the farmers got really mad because the platyona would demolish their pea fields. Pea is high in protein. Perhaps the low nutrient diets in their habitats are not ideal, but only survivable?

 

[Stoneman]

@Will great work. Thank you for being committed to learning and for sharing this great scientific info with us.

 

[Tom]

@Tom one thing I noticed in the first article was that it stated that nutrition content with overall lower fiber, and therefore higher carbohydrates, led to more growth. I also saw that higher protein content led to more growth. Could it be that they only eat high fiber foods because that is all that is available in their habitats? I read that in Burma, the farmers got really mad because the platyona would demolish their pea fields. Pea is high in protein. Perhaps the low nutrient diets in their habitats are not ideal, but only survivable?

You make a good point here and I don't have a defendable answer, but I think they are more like children. Offer a bowl of ice cream with chocolate syrup or a healthy veggie based meal to a child and which will they choose? Which one is better for them?

I think tortoises are adapted to thrive on what is in their native environments, but will certainly take advantage of any opportunity for any sort of nutrient rich foods they come across.

 

[Tom]

I do this with ground limestone every day on their food.

I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.

 

[Stoneman]

I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.

Thank you. I am going to cut back on the sprinkling.

 

[Stoneman]

When they eat an excessive amount, it all gets overloaded in the blood, is there a detox mechanism that filters excess out through the kidneys? If so, does it get excreted as urates or feces?

 

[Tim Carlisle]

I let it soak in water until it is completely broken down, and then thoroughly blend it in with their greens. If you use the right amount of water, it will clump against it in small amounts. This way it is completely covering all of their food. I do this with ground limestone every day on their food.

I did the same with both my sulcata and my leo. The sulcata welcomed it with open mouth (so to speak) whereas my leo would have no part of it and would avoid food containing any amount of Mazuri. Temperamental little thing. lol

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

When they eat an excessive amount, it all gets overloaded in the blood, is there a detox mechanism that filters excess out through the kidneys? If so, does it get excreted as urates or feces?

Excessive amount of which dietary component? Calcium, protein ?

I think Calcium just flows through. @Tom mentioned nutrient competition and that is an important consideration, but also consider that everything they eat in the wild has some calcium, so there will always be some nutrient competition. I think the solution is to offer a higher proportion of some nutrient or range of nutrients in some meals, but hold them back in others. I think the only universally critical nutrient is water.

Crude ash is undifferentiated ash. That is they 'burn off' organic materials at a prescribed temperature for a prescribed period of time, so all that is left is 'ash' - that is crude ash. Then it can be further processed to indicate how much is one thing i.e. calcium. and how much is another thing, i.e. phosphorous.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I think this is too much calcium supplementation. Calcium interferes with the absorption of other nutrients and trace elements like zinc for example. That much calcium every day can cause mineral imbalances which typically lead to rock or substrate eating issues. A couple of times a week with the calcium supplementation should be more than enough for most situations.

I agree it is too frequent, see post 28 in this thread. There is some amount of calcium in every meal, that might be thought of as 'native' and we know that both wild and captive tortoises will consume calcium as a stand alone thing, via cuttlebone of other small bits of stuff like egg shell, snail shells, etc.

So to have a high calcium day a few days a week and a no additional calcium day I think creates a better balance to reduce nutrient competition.

I have a single high calcium day each week, and a few days of using vionate, a few days of using layer crumbles, and a day with no non-native supplements. No non-native supplements still may include high calcium diet items like opuntia, or mulberry.

 

[Stoneman]

Thanks @Will I was referring to calcium. When you say flows through, do you mean does not get absorbed by the digestive track and flows through unabsorbed, or do you mean flows through the blood stream and excreted?

Do you think the hard urates could be in part caused by the excess calcium?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks @Will I was referring to calcium. When you say flows through, do you mean does not get absorbed by the digestive track and flows through unabsorbed, or do you mean flows through the blood stream and excreted?

Do you think the hard urates could be in part caused by the excess calcium?

I mean eating and pooped out. Maybe blocking other nutrients along the way, maybe not.

Urates are the result of metabolized protein. Sometimes them concrete with other nutrients which may include calcium, based on some of these and other readings. Best solve here is to keep the tortoise well hydrated.

 

[Stoneman]

@Will would you recommend herptivite as a daily supplement? Any idea what supplement A and supplement B were in the first study?

 

[Stoneman]

I have been bathing them 3-4 times weekly. Since the solid urates I have switched to daily bathing. I am concerned I am keeping the water too low. I fill it up to where the plastaron meets the carapace. I have seen others go higher but have not wanted risk drowning, water inhalation or pnemonia. Am I too low?

 

[Tom]

I have been bathing them 3-4 times weekly. Since the solid urates I have switched to daily bathing. I am concerned I am keeping the water too low. I fill it up to where the plastaron meets the carapace. I have seen others go higher but have not wanted risk drowning, water inhalation or pnemonia. Am I too low?

I go about halfway up the shell. I've never had any of the problems you mentioned and I've raised over 1000 babies in the last few years with daily soaks this way.

 

[Stoneman]

Okay, awesome I am going to start that up tonight. Perhaps that's whats causing them to not drink.

 

[Stoneman]

Halfway up their shell to the point that their heads would be submerged if not standing upright?

 

[Tom]

Halfway up their shell to the point that their heads would be submerged if not standing upright?

Like so:


They lift their heads and walk around. Unless you've got it so deep they are swimming, they are not going to drown.

…Come to think of it, I once had someone "helping" me soak them, and they had the water so deep that all the babies were standing on their tippy toes and snorkeling their necks up. It did no harm, and I showed them the correct water level for next time.

 

[Stoneman]

Higher than this?

 

[Stoneman]

Sorry to hijack your thread @Will

 

[Tom]

Sorry to hijack your thread @Will

That looks adequate. A little more water wouldn't hurt anything.