Diatomaceous earth used for bug prevention in substrate?

[jockma]

I've read about food grade diatomaceous earth being used to fend off bugs that are attracted to tortoise enclosures.

My RF's indoor enclosure was recently overwhelmed with tiny little bugs. It's a pretty large enclosure and needs a lot of substrate, so it wasn't worth removing all the substrate and baking it to kill off the bugs. It all got thrown out. He's in a temp enclosure now while I switch off cypress and fully sterilize the enclosure itself.

I'm likely getting coco coir bricks and some cypress or orchid bark to mix in and give it a chunkier texture. I'm going to bake the coco coir to kill off any potential invaders (if someone could direct me to a guide on how to do that, that would be great!) but I'd really like to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. I'm aware now that they won't hurt my RF, but I'd just really rather not have them in his enclosure at all. I deserve better, HE deserves better, and those bugs deserve nothing.

So about the diatomaceous earth: is it okay to use this to prevent bugs from ever setting up shop in there? Can I sprinkle it in his substrate and mix it around, or do I need to wait for an actual infestation to occur? Does it annihilate the bugs or does it just cut down their numbers? How much is needed to be effective per sq. ft. of substrate? The most important question is whether it would hurt my RF at all, but it seems like people feed DE to their torts straight in order to prevent parasites so I assume it's safe.

 

[dmmj]

No, it kills bugs ny scratching the exoskeletons. Safe for tortoises

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Let me try to describe what it is and why it works first. If I get it wrong, I'm hoping Adam will correct me here. It is the fossilized skeletons and shells of micro-organisms from days gone by. These fossils are essentially microscopic sharp razors and pointed bits that pierce the bodies of these insects. When that happens, the little buggers die from dehydration and it's good. That's what I know. I've used humid chambers indoors here and never had an outbreak that I read others speak of. I use organic peat moss and a non-manure organic top soil mix in mine. The peat moss has a healthy acid level that prohibits most nasty and pesky things from ever getting a foot hold. From gnats to mold, it doesn't grow.
I do get small moths occasionally and that's from my practice of placing shovelfuls of my pasture in for grazing. I just scoop off the top couple of inches of top soil with all the wild grasses and weeds and put that in for them to graze on. This introduces all manner of insects and arachnids to the habitats. From sow bugs and pill bugs to as I said spiders and moths. When the tortoises have finished with one “plug" I replace it with a new one and put the old in the new hole. I can't tell you if they regrow or not. I've never really bothered to look for them.

 

[jockma]

So peat moss is good for mold/infestation control? I tried it once a few years back but he was too sensitive for it and had eye/breathing issues (rescue tort, bad health etc etc) so I put him on chunkier substrate but he's much stronger now so I should pick up a bag. I remember it was really messy, though, but then again so is coco coir...

So the DE kills through contact only by scratching them up. Does this mean I need to use a lot of it? Does it need to be mixed in or do I just sprinkle it on top of the surface? I'm trying to figure out just how much to buy and how often to reapply, if necessary.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

So peat moss is good for mold/infestation control? I tried it once a few years back but he was too sensitive for it and had eye/breathing issues (rescue tort, bad health etc etc) so I put him on chunkier substrate but he's much stronger now so I should pick up a bag. I remember it was really messy, though, but then again so is coco coir...

Honestly, I've never used the coir, I'm cheap and peat works great for me and is way cheap for the big bag you get. As for the messy part, maybe I've avoided that with the 50/50 by volume mix I use, completely soaked and then a fogger used to keep humidity up. The last time I remember it being dusty was when I mixed a new batch up and added the water. I hope that helps. I've never used the DE myself, never had the need to, and did I mention I'm cheap? LOL

 

[Eric Phillips]

The little bugs you most likely have in your substrate are Springtails. Good for your enclosure, annoying to your eye Can populate huge number colonies fast. I have used DE in the past for my Box Turtles Indoor Enclosure and what I've concluded is by the time the dust settles, you should of just changed the substrate. Springtails are pretty hardy insects. They need and prefer moist areas and as DE is applied it really only works in its initial dry state. As it becomes wet it will not penetrate the exoskeleton. So in theory as you use it on top of the surface your just knocking down the population of springtails by a fraction. DE does not stop the eggs from hatching and they are in large numbers so your more or less creating a mess for your Tort/Turtle. I've even did a test where I removed my Box Turtles and continuously turned the coco coir/compost soil applying the DE and they still came back in large numbers. I wasted hours when I just could of changed the substrate and been done. No messes and less money. FYI

 

[jockma]

I'm going to cry! I didn't notice the springtails until the cypress mulch was really due for replacement, so that gives me SOME hope. If I change the substrate regularly, would I still have to worry about springtails completely swarming the place? They also seemed to be mostly swarming around the log shelter which had started to rot, my RF pushed it out of sight so I couldn't see until it was too late. I haven't seen a single one of these things all day since I've been scrubbing the enclosure like mad. I hate these bugs so, so much. I haven't felt this much resentment for living creatures since ants swarmed my RF while he was snacking on fruits outside. Horrible, horrible creatures. They don't pay rent and have caused me nothing but pain.

So there's really nothing I could do? I'm certainly not using wooden products ever again because flipping over the rotten log shelter and seeing these things scampering around in an enormous mass was absolutely traumatizing. Is there any other harmless alternative to DE that kills these things and makes them suffer?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

If ,when DE becomes wet, it will no longer be effective. I have used it in the past and what I can report is that it works. At first I didn't think it was doing anything in my outdoor pens and months later I realized that there where NO ants at all in my pens.
I know place it down as a barrier before any construction or bedding changes.
I have never had an issue with my tortoises and the DE. In fact, some swear by feeding it to them to help rid them of parasites. I also tried that for a while and I can NOT say if it worked or not.

 

[jockma]

So I can use DE on the dry areas in the enclosure, then, unless humidity will make the DE ineffective as well.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...I think I'll just throw some roly polys in there so they can eat up whatever it is that's attracting the springtails. I'd rather have some roly polys than a crawling mass of springtail hellspawn.

 

[CourtneyG]

So I can use DE on the dry areas in the enclosure, then, unless humidity will make the DE ineffective as well.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...I think I'll just throw some roly polys in there so they can eat up whatever it is that's attracting the springtails. I'd rather have some roly polys than a crawling mass of springtail hellspawn.

I love my little rolys, they keeps other bugs away and they keep the tank clean of left over spilt food and poop and they eat mold as well.

 

[jockma]

I love my little rolys, they keeps other bugs away and they keep the tank clean of left over spilt food and poop and they eat mold as well.

It's the lesser of two evils, I think all bugs are gross but I'd prefer rolys any day. I don't know where to buy them, though, and I'm also pretty certain my RF would eat them all. He's a beast...

 

[CourtneyG]

It's the lesser of two evils, I think all bugs are gross but I'd prefer rolys any day. I don't know where to buy them, though, and I'm also pretty certain my RF would eat them all. He's a beast...

Can normally find them out in the wild under logs and rocks, but there are a few websites that sell them, but they are pricy.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Heck folks, pay shipping and packaging supplies and I'll send a pile to you…

 

[jockma]

Heck folks, pay shipping and packaging supplies and I'll send a pile to you…

I live in SoCal and haven't seen a roly poly in ages, I doubt I could find any of them myself.

How many would I need? Hundreds? Mannnn I feel itchy just thinking about this. I'm probably not cut out to be meddling around with bugs.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I live in SoCal and haven't seen a roly poly in ages, I doubt I could find any of them myself.

How many would I need? Hundreds? Mannnn I feel itchy just thinking about this. I'm probably not cut out to be meddling around with bugs.

I had about six inside my closed chamber. They multiply. Do you have an extra "welcome" mat type thing around? Place it outside on the grass. Wait two weeks for the grass to die and then lift the mat. Instant Rolly Polly farm. (A larger section of plywood would be even better.)

 

[Eric Phillips]

Rollie Pollies eat decaying matter not another living Isopod like a Springtail. FYI Springtails(Isopod) eat decaying matter but also mold, both will heartily munch on scat from your turtle or tortoise(which is good). There are I think a few things that will feed on Springtails, I know there is a mite that eats them up but good luck with wanting a mite in your enclosure, spiders, and some frogs. Like I said before Food Grade DE will work on the things crawling on the ground but its not going to kill much in the soil. It doesn't kill the eggs or larvae so while you think your getting them more springtails will show up at another time. And if you don't know there is a difference in DE grades. Food Grade is the only one safe enough to put in with the turtles and you can buy it at a Feed Store. Take Ken's advice buy some of his Peat for petes sake

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Coco coir doesn't need to be baked before use.
It's already sterile and in my experience nothing much likes living in it or growing on it. It's great.
Ken is right, DE is formed of fossil diatoms up to 50 million years old, (older ones exist but aren't as good quality).
Diatoms are single celled algae with a double silica shell. The 'skeletons' of millions of these make DE.
DE kills insects by abrasion and by absorbing lipids (fats) from the exoskeletons of insects, causing them to dehydrate.
It can cause dehydration in slugs and snails in the same way.
We often use it in toothpaste as an abrasive (the gritty bits are dead algae!).
I've never had to use any in my enclosure though, so I don't know how well it works.

 

[Yelloweyed]

I live in SoCal as well. Pill bugs, aka roly poly, like moist, dark areas. Try lifting up the edges of grass, especially near rocks or planters. I send my kids out to 'hunt' for them.

 

[jockma]

They...multiply? Are we talking about enormous swarms of rolys? I'll go looking for them. It's bone dry out there and I live in the city, so I'll have to be the weird person in the park roaming around and picking out bugs from underneath things. So when I clean out his enclosure I just pick out a few and then throw the rest of them out with the substrate? What kind of cruel fate is that?!

I love the idea of not having to sterilize anything so coco coir/peat it is. Aww but my little bean likes his substrate chunky.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

They...multiply? Are we talking about enormous swarms of rolys? I'll go looking for them. It's bone dry out there and I live in the city, so I'll have to be the weird person in the park roaming around and picking out bugs from underneath things. So when I clean out his enclosure I just pick out a few and then throw the rest of them out with the substrate? What kind of cruel fate is that?!

I love the idea of not having to sterilize anything so coco coir/peat it is. Aww but my little bean likes his substrate chunky.

You can leave the peat,chunkier if you like. The compressed block you receive from the nursery/do it yer self center comes very compressed. As it is broken down by you, it is lumpy or smooth.