Difference from the front

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GeoTerraTestudo

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I realize that T. hermanni has a spurred tail, and T. graeca has spurred thighs, but I find it difficult to tell the difference between these two species when I can't see their rear ends. How can I distinguish them from the front or the side?
 

Terry Allan Hall

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
I realize that T. hermanni has a spurred tail, and T. graeca has spurred thighs, but I find it difficult to tell the difference between these two species when I can't see their rear ends. How can I distinguish them from the front or the side?

It can be pretty tough, actually...some T. graeca ssps. are a bit flatter-looking from the side, and more "oblong" from the top, but this is not a hard and fast rule.
 

bikerchicspain

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You can't, the only way is by looking at the Supracaudal, the Hemanni has 2 and the Greek has only one,
 

GBtortoises

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Not true about the supercaudal split or lack of. Not all Hermann's have a split supercaudal and many do have single supercaudal scutes. Not all "Greeks" have a single one although split supercaudal scutes are not as common among "Greeks" as they are with the Hermann's subspecies. The photo below shows a pair of Eastern Hermann's. The lower one is the male with a split supercaudal, the upper tortoise is the female without a single supercaudal.

DSC00760.jpg


One of the easiest ways to distinguish Hermann's from most Greek subspecies is by the plastron. The scute arrangement on the plastron is very different. Generally speaking, as adults female Hermann's are round or sort of tear drop shaped, males are tear drop shaped (for lack of a better description). Most Greek subspecies of which there are several, are generally oblong shaped. Most Greeks, except for Ibera, do not have the rear marginal flaring to the extent that Hermann's do. But this not always the case either. The head features of Hermann's and Greeks are also usually quite different. Ibera usually have large, bulbulous heads with large round eyes. Other Greeks often have longer, more uniformly slender shaped heads with more narrow eyes. Head shape among Hermann's varies somewhat between subspecies and to some degree, among populations. Generally speaking Hermann's have a somewhat slender nose area that is very blunt. the head often gets very wide just behind eyes at the ears. Head scales are also a determining factor, especially among the different Greeks.
 

Terry Allan Hall

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GBtortoises said:
Not true about the supercaudal split or lack of. Not all Hermann's have a split supercaudal and many do have single supercaudal scutes. Not all "Greeks" have a single one although split supercaudal scutes are not as common among "Greeks" as they are with the Hermann's subspecies. The photo below shows a pair of Eastern Hermann's. The lower one is the male with a split supercaudal, the upper tortoise is the female without a single supercaudal.

DSC00760.jpg

Not to hijack the thread, GB, but I've just noticed that both of my Hermanni-gurls have only 4 toes on their front feet, instead 5...any thoughts on this?

I think I recall reading that some populations in Roumania(?) often only have 4 toes on the front. Am I mis-remembering and/or getting the location mixed up?
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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GBtortoises said:
...The head features of Hermann's and Greeks are also usually quite different. Ibera usually have large, bulbulous heads with large round eyes. Other Greeks often have longer, more uniformly slender shaped heads with more narrow eyes. Head shape among Hermann's varies somewhat between subspecies and to some degree, among populations. Generally speaking Hermann's have a somewhat slender nose area that is very blunt. the head often gets very wide just behind eyes at the ears. Head scales are also a determining factor, especially among the different Greeks.

That's what I was looking for ... thanks! Now I just have to commit that to memory. ;)
 

GBtortoises

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Terry-It's true that many of the more northern Eastern Hermann's races often have only four claws on their front feet. Primarily those originating from Romania and Bulgaria. I don't think I have any with four claws anymore. Years ago I had two very large females (both over 9") that probably originated from Romania. The northern Hermann's races also tend to be much larger in overall size than others.

The problem with using this trait as an identifier in captivity, especially with Hermann's is that no one really knows the origin of their animals now and so many different Eastern Hermanns from different geographical regions have been interbred with each other. So while a Hermann's might have 4 claws on the front feet, it might only grow to 6 or 7" as an adult!
 

Terry Allan Hall

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GBtortoises said:
Terry-It's true that many of the more northern Eastern Hermann's races often have only four claws on their front feet. Primarily those originating from Romania and Bulgaria. I don't think I have any with four claws anymore. Years ago I had two very large females (both over 9") that probably originated from Romania. The northern Hermann's races also tend to be much larger in overall size than others.

The problem with using this trait as an identifier in captivity, especially with Hermann's is that no one really knows the origin of their animals now and so many different Eastern Hermanns from different geographical regions have been interbred with each other. So while a Hermann's might have 4 claws on the front feet, it might only grow to 6 or 7" as an adult!

I see....thanks! :cool:
 
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