Different growth rate?

[muddled]

Hello all! Here I come back again with a question, thanks to all of you for always being so helpful and understanding

I have 3 redfoot tortoises: two siblings born in easter 09, and one cherryhead mix born in april 15th 09. When I got them they were about the same size, but one of the siblings is about an inch smaller than the other one.

It wouldn't worry me so much but I notice that he's really shy, at least in comparison to the other two. I'll put them all next to a big salad while the other two race for the plate, the littlest one refuses to eat until minutes later. I always make sure he ends up eating, but the slow growth is a concern.

Is this normal in tortoises?

 

[Chewbecca]

Hello all! Here I come back again with a question, thanks to all of you for always being so helpful and understanding

I have 3 redfoot tortoises: two siblings born in easter 09, and one cherryhead mix born in april 15th 09. When I got them they were about the same size, but one of the siblings is about an inch smaller than the other one.

It wouldn't worry me so much but I notice that he's really shy, at least in comparison to the other two. I'll put them all next to a big salad while the other two race for the plate, the littlest one refuses to eat until minutes later. I always make sure he ends up eating, but the slow growth is a concern.

Is this normal in tortoises?

I cannot answer your question because I am not knowledgeable on tortoise behavior. And I'm quite curious to hear an answer (hopefully Terry K. chimes in since he keeps several redfoots together).
I wonder, and I'm not saying this is so, but I wonder if he could be being bullied?
I know this can happen when you house more than one gecko together, but I'm not sure how tortoises work in this regard.

 

[Tom]

My three Sulcatas did that same thing. The boldest one was always first to the food and ate the most. As he grew bigger his big male head got bigger and he was able to gulp down the food much faster than the other two. I had to start feeding them all separately and take steps to make sure each one got its fair share.

 

[muddled]

I have looked at them, and honestly I haven't found any bullying against each other. They all sleep by the same spot, and when they eat they all go for their food but don't fight for it. They all get their fair share (imo) and when they're full they just walk away... plenty of food leftover by the time they're done with their supper.

I tried feeding them separately, but it's the same thing... the little tortoise just refuses to eat until 5-10 minutes later. In the wait he just stands there inside his shell? I don't know if it's just a personality thing or if he's lacking in nutrients

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Hey mud...

It's just a 'juvie' redfoot thing!

I would encourage you to take note of the amount of what you offer them.. and then offer them a little less than the amount they eat.

In other words.. they should not have so much that they can't eat it all.

I always keep mine hungry.

The best thing is spread it around all over their enclosure.. a few bites here.. a few bites there! - instead of one big pile.

This applies to everyone out there!

Terry K

 

[Meg90]

This is the most common effect of keeping hatchlings together.

You say you have not "seen" bullying, but from the behavior you describe, it has gone on, and the pecking order has been established. This is what they do in the wild--survival of the fittest and whatnot. Except that when the loser is established in the wild, he is free to leave and find a new territory without the competition. In captivity, the little baby is doomed to live day in and out with the tortoises he has "lost" too. And by "losing" I mean basking spots--the right to eat, the hiding places.

If you are keeping them under identical conditions, and they are clutch mates (same genetics) there is no reason that one would be so stunted. As a hatchling, 1" is a big deal.

I would pull the small baby immediately, and put him in a temp (if not just his very own permanent) enclosure. See if after a month he's not eating and growing as fast as the others. I really do think that if left this way, he will be stunted and eventually even more submissive, especially as his bullies gain more weight, and size.

If you think about this from an animal standpoint, it makes sense. The two bigger rfs have decided that the food is for them, and that the other one can have the leavings. Is this how you want him to grow up?

And come on now! Post some enclosure pics! I've been dying for them for months. Especially since I saw your plans.

 

[muddled]

Thank you all

I'll put more attention and give smaller servings instead of a big salad dump, haha!

Meg, the little one has always been tiny since I got him... but I have noticed that the other two are very active and bigger, and the little one is shy and not growing quite as fast! I really haven't seen any bullying or pecking behavior being established since all they do is hide, sleep, and only come out for eating so I'm not sure. What kind of temporary enclosure would you suggest? I only have the 25 gal tank as a spare atm

(I keep forgetting about the enclosure pics - once I get a camera again I'll do a photoshoot XD)

 

[Meg90]

Grab a bin from Target or walmart. You can get a nice sized one for 12$. Set it up like you have now, humid, warm, lots of cover and places to hide.

Unless you've been watching them 24/7 you can't be sure that there has been no bullying. And once the loser is established, they never really physically fight again. Its all psychological from there on out. The little guy accepts that he's lost.

 

[Madkins007]

Bullying in Red-foots and many other animals is pretty subtle. The lowest ranked animal (usually the smallest) is just blocked from good sleeping spots, good basking sites, the better food, etc. It is walked over, trapped, etc.

Like Terry said, multiple feeding sites really help. You often see photos of one big pile of food surrounded by torts, but that is mostly just a photo op. It works out nicely to scatter food as much as you can.

Multiple good hides and basking sites help as well. Even if it is eating OK it will not grow as well if it cannot warm up to digest or sleep comfortably.

Is the little one the 'cherryhead'?

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Whenever wrong advice is given by the same individual twice in the same thread I'm compelled to bring attention to them.. especially when they have little or NO experience with the species being discussed - ignore all of what Meg has said about bullying and the 'emotional' effects. It doesn't exist.

I've "started" 200 or so hatchling redfoot tortoises and currently keep around 35. The 4" - 6" are kept together. Once they are over 6" they are then placed with the two 11+" males. There is a larger table with 7" - 14" females. It has never occured to me to separate 2" - 3" babies! There is no need to...

Terry K

 

[Meg90]

Oh, Terry, I love how subtle you are.

Tank and Turbo--Both baby Greeks, both the same size. Their owner got them in a pair so they would always have a "friend"

And THIS is Tank and Turbo 2 1/2 years later. Obviously this worked out better for one tortoise, than the other.

Especially since the smaller tortoise is a female, which get larger than the males in almost every species (Greeks are no exception) and they were raised in IDENTICAL conditions with the same diet, lighting, substrate etc. There was only one reason for one tortoise to be so stunted.

You can make your own choices Maria. Breeders will do as they will. I can pick a pancake baby out of 20 in one tank, but does that mean that its right--and I can keep them that was as pets? A gecko kept with 20 others in a single 10 gallon pet store cage, when they should each have 10 gallons to themselves--is that OK for a pet owner?

Terry has his reasons obviously, and I have mine. Unlike my fellow member, I'm not crass enough to tell you to ignore advice given.

You've seen both sides, and I believe you have a good amount of information on which to base your decision.

 

[t_mclellan]

Ok my turn to chime in!
I agree with some of what all of you are saying, & disagree at the same time.
First off let me say this;
I have no idea how many eggs I have hatched! Something between a lot & a lot more!
I keep a herd of adults & about a 1/2 a herd of youngsters I'm raising.
(herd = way more than 5)
I have been keeping Redfoots (not to mention other animals) since way before the turn of the century!
I really could care less about being "Politically Correct" & I don't worry about hurting feelings when I state my opinion. Because it is just that, OPINION! (ok maybe I worry, but just a lil'bit!)
If you jump down my throat for something I say, I could truly care less.

Now on to;
"What I have seen"!

I have seen that what makes sense in a situation is often false!
Much of what is written on a subject can be proven false depending on the context.
Here the context is animals.
One would think that tortoises from the same parents, From eggs in the same clutch,
Kept under the same environmental conditions & fed exactly the same, Will grow the same way.
That makes sense, Right?
Well "Reality" dose not need to make sense!
Just because some tortoises hatch from the same clutch dose NOT make them the same!
These are siblings! Not Identical TWINs!
I have found that sometimes hatchlings grow at similar rates & sometimes they don't.
My nursery tanks are 20 gal. longs. I will put no more than 6 hatchlings per tank.
Why? Just because this works best for me & the hatchlings. You & yours, Who knows!
Hum.= 85% / They have fresh water & food always! There are small hides for each animal & they still hide in groups.
I feed all the way I do just because I think, If a hatchling wakes up from a nap, It may like a snack! I know I do! I don't think a hungry kid will grow the best!
But anyway, From hatchling to 2 months siblings can vary in size as much as 1 in.
I have had siblings in separate nurseries So don't tell me that the "Big guy over there is bullying the little guy over here"!
Do hatchlings "Bully"?
On occasion, Yes but it is very subtle. If you think this is why your tort's are growing at different rates, (here is where I pick on you) SEPARATE them! If they is too all fired difficult for someone to figure out, Then "COTTON BALL's" would be a better companion!
Again these are just my opinions! They are based on what I have seen with the few animals I have kept for what in the grand scheme of thing amount to a very short time! .

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Meg we're talking about redfoots.. Tom and I both are talking about redfoots. Hands on personal experiences with redfoots.. different parts of the country but still basically the same care given. Carl ( cdmay ) is in this loop too - I've learned way more from them than anyone out there!

You don't see us talking about anything other than redfoots. I'm with Tom because we're talking about our experiences with redfoots. And I/we? agree that it doesn't matter what your experience with any other tortoise is because there's a real good chance that it doesn't have anything to do with redfoots.. and then again there is a chance that "some" things are similar.. probly few.

As far as numbers and how long for me - turtles? sometime in the 70's.. tortoises? early 90's.. redfoots late 90's.. hatchlings? lost count at ???

Do I care.. probly more than it sounds and that's to NOT confuse someone/anyone like Maria who is new at keeping redfoots, knows it and cares enough to want to do what is best for them.

Unfortunately there is entirely TOO much "cross-over" info given that does not apply to a given species.

BTW.. I have an early '06 hatchling that I started.. went to someone else for a year and a half and came back and is smaller than a few late '08's. There are that one and a dozen others in a table 32" x 14'.

Terry K

 

[Meg90]

Hey Terry--if I only had experience with snakes, I wouldn't comment. A red foot is a tortoise. The basic things that make them different from Greeks, are their diet, and humidity requirements. I would call that an apple---and an apple.

Your "opinion" on my advice is taking up room in this thread. Look at your last two posts.

I said my peace three posts ago. She can make her own decision. It doesn't matter how you keep your redfoots, or if I have one. She asked for advice and she got it. I've moved on--why haven't you?

 

[fifthdawn]

Hmm, I'm gonna have to agree with Meg on this one. Even though they're different species, they're still tortoises and the concepts should still apply for both. I think bullying or dominance is a very plausable explanation for size differences. Yes, there will be genetic variations within a set of hathclings, no doubt about it, but the difference should not be "THAT" large judging from Meg's photos.

As for experience, I'm not doubting Terry has alot of it. But sometimes all the experience in the world would not provide proper knowledge in certain areas. This is a bad example, perhaps someone can give a better with through with the same analogical concepts. For years, humans have a large experience roaming the earth and all elderly claims the earth is flat. It only takes one person to look out of the horizon on incoming ships to logically realize the earth is round. Knowledge through experience is largely dependent on the perception of the knower. All experience provide is info on how it appears to the knower and it is all dependent on how the knower interprets the information.


Muddled, heres what I can tell you based on a experience AND research on growth rate. I've kept turtles, lizards, and other reptiles. The beginning years are most crucial, and if growth is prohibitted or slowed, the tortoise will have a hard time catching up in growth. I've adopted 2 turtles and a bearded dragon that came from the same parents but I'll use turtles for this example. One ate more than the other always. Because of this, the size difference is 2 inch vs 5 inches. I've seperated them now since the 5 inch is big enough to go in with my 6 incher. Even now, with good supplementation and right amount of food, the 2 inch doesn't seem to be growing much or catching up in size. I believe the same applies for humans. If you've lacked nutrition up to puberty, then it is very likely you'll remain small even with proper nutrition.

When I feed my tortoises, I separate them on the food dish. I have two pile of food, a pile on one end and a pile on other. I always have the two back to back so that they're both facing opposite position. That way they only eat whats in front of them. I agree with Terry that they should always be a little hungry, which is why I control the amount of food they eat.

 

[muddled]

I honestly don't know what to say. If I separate the littlest one (which is one of the easter baby siblings) would I eventually be able to put them in the same enclosure once they grow up? And at what point would that be? Also, if I separated them... from what it seems since tortoises establish pecking orders, wouldn't the same happen with the cherryhead and bigger northern?

As far as feeding them, I've been separating them and while the little one still takes a while to seem interested in the food, they're all eating their (smaller) respective portions. I hope everything works out

 

[Meg90]

Red Foots get pretty large Maria, if you're talking indoor enclosure, its likely all three will not be able to fit into just one anyways. Outdoors they may do much better. The more space, hides, and sight barriers, the better they all will fare, so someone can get away from the others if need be.

Can you post a picture of your enclosure? Maybe there isn't enough space, or cover for three babies. But a new, bigger "territory" could fix your problems.

I had a similar experience with two of my crested geckos--they lived together fine for months (two adult girls) then one day one started attacking the other--little nips, that graduated into bites where she held on. So I stripped down the cage, washed the existing scent off of everything, rearranged the entire thing, added more plants and put them both back. I had another incident two days later, in which my aggressor would not let go of her poor victim, until I reached in. I know that those are not tortoises, but the behavior is comparable--one female decided it was HERS and wanted the other girl to leave--but she couldn't. I split them up the same night, and the poor picked on gecko was back to her sweet, rapidly eating self within two weeks where before she was a mess that hid all the time, didn't want to be touched, and ate what was left over.

Just my thoughts.

You know your torts better than anybody, I can give all the advice in the world, but you have to do what's right for you, and them.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I honestly don't know what to say. If I separate the littlest one (which is one of the easter baby siblings) would I eventually be able to put them in the same enclosure once they grow up? And at what point would that be? Also, if I separated them... from what it seems since tortoises establish pecking orders, wouldn't the same happen with the cherryhead and bigger northern?

As far as feeding them, I've been separating them and while the little one still takes a while to seem interested in the food, they're all eating their (smaller) respective portions. I hope everything works out

You don't need to say or do anything but what you are doing Maria.. there's no reason to separate them. In fact they pile up on each other in the same hide regardless how much room they have.

When I first got started breeding these guys I got a second male in hopes of "combat" to 'stir-up-the-juices' - I couldn't get them to fight!

How or why Meg or anyone thinks she/they can or should give advice on one species by using examples of a different one never fails to amaze me.. especially when she/they don't keep them themselves.

Listening to someone that has kept redfoots.. would be the best advice don't ya think?

Terry K

 

[t_mclellan]

Lets see here;
There are 2 pages in this thread & I see the same question being asked & the same opinions being given. Over & over.

muddled; Do you think bullying is the problem?

If so I refer you to what so many have said before. Separate them!

I also stand firm on the fact that having different growth rates, Even relatively large differences, in 2 tortoises in the same tank dose NOT prove BULLYING!

Meg90 as for "Apples & apples" your not thinking here!
But you made me think! So I did just a little checking & low & behold the first thing I found was .... http://www.allaboutapples.com/varieties/

Now just from that site I can see that ALL APPLES ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL!!

Meg90 I just had to go there & hope it makes you laugh!
I did!

 

[muddled]

Hrrm... t_mclellan, in my last post I asked if I could be able to put them back together again after they grow up if I were to separate them, and I mentioned that I've been feeding them separately. I didn't ask if bullying was the problem. (btw meg, yes, once they grow up they'll definitively be outdoors - right now they're in a 5' by 4' enclosure) But:

I honestly don't know what to say.

There's some contradictory information here from different members with very valid theories so excuse me for being confused ;/