Dig Fence for Russian Tortoise

[Vanessa Schnautz]

So I'm planning a 220 square foot outdoor enclosure. It will be completely roofed, so climbing is not a concern. It will have 3 sections. A shingled area, a clear corrugated roof area (greenhouse-like), and a hardware cloth roofed sunning area. Really - it's a giant bird aviary. I've read about Russians being escape artists. It will have a paving stone perimeter (to make mowing the lawn outside the enclosure easier). As an extra measure, what do you folks think about this dig fence? It gets hammered into the ground. The spikes are 8 inches deep and 2 inches apart.

 

[Gillian M]

Hi and a very warm welcome to the forum.

 

[turdle yerdle]

Very clever! What a great idea!

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Vanessa, and welcome to the Forum!

Will that bird area provide a section where the tortoise can get real sunshine (not shade or filtered)?

I'm not a fan of fencing that a tortoise can see through. If they can see out, they spend most of their time trying to get out.

(If anyone's interested here's the web site: http://digdefence.com/products/ )

 

[JoesMum]

I'm guessing that pushes right into the ground alongside the enclosure walls to prevent digging out. It would be great as long as there are no rocks in your ground. If there are any rocks, they will be almost impossible to stick into the ground.

As for the cover over your enclosure, there needs to be an area where the sun can shine directly into the enclosure. Chain link fencing or chicken wire is about as small as I would risk. Anything else will obstruct both heat and UVB

 

[Big Charlie]

The dig fence might be a good idea but I'm not sure it is necessary. Will your Russian be inside your enclosure full time? Not all tortoises dig, and they don't dig to escape. They generally dig when they are trying to control their temperature, so when it is too hot or too cold. I've never seen Charlie dig when he is cold, only during the summer, and only if he doesn't have a cool place to lie in. I don't think he has enough energy when it is cold to dig. When they dig, their burrows do not have a opening on the other side, so even if your tortoise digs a burrow, he won't escape that way.

You should make sure your enclosure has walls your tort can't see through. If the enclosure is big enough and he doesn't know there is a world outside of it, I don't think he will try to escape.

 

[leigti]

I put hardware cloth under mine. I made sort of a raised garden bed with 2 x 12's with hardware cloth below. Then I filled it in with a bunch of organic garden soil and Pete Moss then planted seeds for weeds. Since you're putting pavers around the outside edge go ahead and put them along the inside edge as well. That will probably be enough to keep your tortoise in. You can always do a combination of things, I couldn't pound anything into the ground here, it's all rock.
I have heard of tortoises, Russian specifically, the did dig out. But it's more that they dig along the edge of something and I think the tortoise I know of just dug along the edge and happens to end up out. They never did find him. So it is definitely a concern.
I do have a question about the roofing you are talking about. Is the idea that you're giving your tour the shade or that you're trying to keep part of the enclosure dry or keep it secure to keep things out? For security plants in the enclosure, small shrubs like lavender etc. will make your tortoise feel secure and give them shade. Just wondering. Planning and building enclosures is a lot of fun. And in my experience anyway, it never ends

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

Thanks for the comments. The tortoise will be in the enclosure full time, except for hibernation. I could put a 12-inch high cedar siding at the bottom of the fencing and hold off on the dig-fence. The design of the enclosure is 2 pentagons made from 7-foot lumber, joined with a 7-foot cube. I'm using the starplate connector system from http://www.strombergschickens.com/starplate_building_system. I'll square-off one end from 2 pentagons, and that will be where the 7-foot cube joins them. So the first pentagon is under a maple tree, gets 6 hours of sun a day, but will be shingled and walled with cedar siding and 2 big windows. The middle square will be clear plastic pvc walls and roof so I can get a headstart growing plants for tortoise (and indoor bunnies) while the spring weather is still cool. The second pentagon gets more sun, but I'll be pruning the maple tree to be sure of that. My boyfriend cut down a really large tree in that corner, where the loose soil is. I plan on pruning the maple tree back to open up the sunlight. I hadn't thought that half-inch cloth would shade out the sun. Since that will be the last section I build, I'll have some time to figure out the hardware cloth. If it looks like the half-inch cloth provides too much shade, I'll come up with another plan. At the moment, I'm working on the first section. It is actually a bird aviary, so I really need half-inch hardware cloth. I'm still reading up about birds/tortoises and disease transmission, and at this point I'm more concerned about the birds getting sick from the tortoise. If I decide against putting the tortoise in the aviary, I'll come up with a section outside the aviary where I can use chainlink. I'm not a fan of chicken wire. I figured the aviary would be a good size for the tortoise. So at the moment, my plan is to come up with an escape proof, sunny habitat, that is easy to keep clean.

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

I put hardware cloth under mine. I made sort of a raised garden bed with 2 x 12's with hardware cloth below. Then I filled it in with a bunch of organic garden soil and Pete Moss then planted seeds for weeds. Since you're putting pavers around the outside edge go ahead and put them along the inside edge as well. That will probably be enough to keep your tortoise in. You can always do a combination of things, I couldn't pound anything into the ground here, it's all rock.
I have heard of tortoises, Russian specifically, the did dig out. But it's more that they dig along the edge of something and I think the tortoise I know of just dug along the edge and happens to end up out. They never did find him. So it is definitely a concern.
I do have a question about the roofing you are talking about. Is the idea that you're giving your tour the shade or that you're trying to keep part of the enclosure dry or keep it secure to keep things out? For security plants in the enclosure, small shrubs like lavender etc. will make your tortoise feel secure and give them shade. Just wondering. Planning and building enclosures is a lot of fun. And in my experience anyway, it never ends

The paving stones are comming out of the center. I'll only have them just on the inside and outside of the perimiter. I want a shaded section to keep part of the enclosure dry, since I'll have finches in there. Enclosure are sure fun to build. My original bird aviary was many versions ago... Every winter I do some upgrade. This winter is an entirely new construction. I also made a double story 4ft wide 8 ft long small animal house. The rabbits used it while they were outdoors. Now the yorkies use the botton half and the cat uses the top half. This is my first attempt at shingles. I like it.

 

[leigti]

It is my opinion that you should not put the tortoises and birds together. Birds could hurt tortoises by pecking at them. And you don't want your tortoises eating bird poop. It's not like it's a huge wild area, the poop will be concentrated no matter how much you clean it. I would build a totally separate area for your tortoise.
Those are cool looking aviaries though.

 

[JoesMum]

It is my opinion that you should not put the tortoises and birds together. Birds could hurt tortoises by pecking at them. And you don't want your tortoises eating bird poop. It's not like it's a huge wild area, the poop will be concentrated no matter how much you clean it. I would build a totally separate area for your tortoise.
Those are cool looking aviaries though.

The Tortoise eating bird poop is my concern. They like eating poop and bird poop is white which is attractive to them. I think it is more likely that the birds could cause problems with the Tortoise than the other way round.

 

[Jacqui]

My fear is if the Russian happened to dig where that fence is might might squeeze enough to get caught. My Russians have hardware cloth walls that go down about 8" into the ground. This was made years ago, 20 years of so. By now that wire is rusted to nothing. I have probably had about 20 Russians in there through the years and nobody has dug out of even dig near that wire wall. Just my experience.

 

[Jacqui]

It is my opinion that you should not put the tortoises and birds together. Birds could hurt tortoises by pecking at them. And you don't want your tortoises eating bird poop. It's not like it's a huge wild area, the poop will be concentrated no matter how much you clean it. I would build a totally separate area for your tortoise.
Those are cool looking aviaries though.

Plus even though Russians are more herbivores, tortoises are also opportunistic. SIck, weak, injured birds, baby birds and especially eggs could possibly become part of the food chain.

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

Hmmm... I could just build a separate area attatched to the outside of the aviary. Since it is in the front yard, it has to look attractive. My backup plan was to build something that looks like a 3 foot wide planter and run it along the length of the aviary. Plant it, throw some soil in, and instead of using dig fences, use concrete paving stones. I have plenty of those. If I use concrete as the floor, before throwing dirt in, I wodul wan tto slope it for drainage. I don't want to end up with a mud pit. Or I could dig the planters vertically into the ground as a foot-deep underground wall, to keep the tortoise from digging. That would be somewhat labor intensive. I read through the lost and found section... Don't want that happening.

 

[leigti]

Russians, and probably other tortoises too, like to walk the perimeter of their enclosure. So a long enclosure that is narrow will actually give them more territory so to speak then a square one. They won't spend much time hanging out in the middle usually. I don't think the whole thing would have to be pavers just the sides. A friend of mine uses I think 6 inch wide pavers around the inside perimeter of her enclosure and hasn't had a problem. I think that's what I'm going to do to modify my outdoor enclosure in the spring. The hardware cloth has been down there long enough that it is probably beginning to just go away also.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome.

First I applaud your efforts and that looks like a really cool aviary.

I don't want our comments to sound discouraging, as we only intend to help you prevent issues down the road. Along those lines, I see a few potential issues:
1. All the cedar concerns me. Cedar gives off toxic fumes and that is why its good to repel bugs. I worry about those fumes both for you birds and your tortoises.
2. I think hardware cloth will not block too much sun. It will be fine. Your tortoises would get plenty of sun from the sides too.
3. This is a big one. Tortoises should not be living under birds. It is very messy and all that bacteria and feces all over the tortoises living area is likely to end badly. I don't think this idea will work based on that problem alone.
4. I'm not comfortable with the "no dig" spikes. I worry that a determined tortoise would find a way to turn sides ways and wedge himself in between those tines. I buried 1x2" welded wire 18" down along the edges of my enclosure and that worked for me.
5. I didn't see it mentioned, but the tortoises would also need a visual barrier around the entire bottom too.

Here are some ideas for outdoor enclosures:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/semi-underground-russian-box.98590/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/heating-an-outdoor-russian-night-box.116180/#post-1077261
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cheap-easy-simple-sunning-enclosure.14680/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/simple-sunning-enclosure.104351/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...table-but-safe-outdoor-baby-enclosures.30683/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-enclosures.121732/

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

Hey I appreciate the comments. On the rabbit forums, I give people advice all the time. So I'm certainly understand the benefits of being on the receiving end Cedar is something to think about. From what I've read, as far as birds go, red cedar should be avoided, but there are other kinds of cedar that are considered safe. I have a cedar bee hive. The bees do just fine. Cedar shavings are bad, of all types. I was planning on using white or yellow cedar as exterior siding, then insulation, then interior non-cedar walls. I could think about that some more... I'm still working on the roof. Roof has to be complete before I can put the exterior walls up. I have buried wire before to stop my dogs from digging out. It rusted away and became a mess. 2-inches is definitely a bit wide, so I might just go with paving stones and a drainage slope. I definitely want a visual barrier around the entire bottom. Yes - birds involve poop management. If you can control where they perch, you can control where they poop. So I place perches 18 inches away from the walls running parrallel, but that woudl mean a foot wide poop path that is a foot away from the perimiter, all around the perimiter. So... I'll go with the planter-style idea on the outside of the aviary. But then I might have to reconsider the cedar. The birds won't have access to the cedar. But the tortoise would. So I need to rethink the tortoise box. It looks like some of the underground boxes you folk designed use pine? Is that a safe wood for a visual barrier?

 

[leigti]

Are used to by 12 treated lumber. It might not have been the best choice but haven't had a problem. It was outside and very much air it out before the tortoise ever got in there.

 

[Tom]

Hey I appreciate the comments. On the rabbit forums, I give people advice all the time. So I'm certainly understand the benefits of being on the receiving end Cedar is something to think about. From what I've read, as far as birds go, red cedar should be avoided, but there are other kinds of cedar that are considered safe. I have a cedar bee hive. The bees do just fine. Cedar shavings are bad, of all types. I was planning on using white or yellow cedar as exterior siding, then insulation, then interior non-cedar walls. I could think about that some more... I'm still working on the roof. Roof has to be complete before I can put the exterior walls up. I have buried wire before to stop my dogs from digging out. It rusted away and became a mess. 2-inches is definitely a bit wide, so I might just go with paving stones and a drainage slope. I definitely want a visual barrier around the entire bottom. Yes - birds involve poop management. If you can control where they perch, you can control where they poop. So I place perches 18 inches away from the walls running parrallel, but that woudl mean a foot wide poop path that is a foot away from the perimiter, all around the perimiter. So... I'll go with the planter-style idea on the outside of the aviary. But then I might have to reconsider the cedar. The birds won't have access to the cedar. But the tortoise would. So I need to rethink the tortoise box. It looks like some of the underground boxes you folk designed use pine? Is that a safe wood for a visual barrier?

I just use regular plywood, 2x4s and 2x12s for most of my projects. I prime and paint the outsides, but not the insides.

 

[Vanessa Schnautz]

Alright, sounds good.
Leigti - I've also used treated lumber in the bird aviary: these days they don't use arsenic to treat outdoor lumber. So unless it's a parrot with a large beak that wants to chew on everything, I haven't had an issue with outdoor-treated lumber. I have also used it in some rabbit enclosures. They seem to chew on untreated pine, but they leave the treated stuff alone. I still like to provide a safe surface over any treated wood, but when you are dealing with outdoor enclosures and ground contact, sometimes you have to pick the least objectionable method, and mitigate around it.

Anyhow - I think this gives me enough to start with. I'll check out those links and look at some of your enclosures. The underground boxes are really cool.

I hope to have the first pentagon completed by late December, middle cube by late Jan, last pentagon by end Feb, and then I'll be ready to build the tortoise box. It'll go on the outside of the aviary.