Discussion on big torts and bad breeders

[Reptilony]

Right. Because more government intrusion solves every problem. The same way people with driver's licenses always do the right things and never drive poorly.

Requiring government permission to exercise our rights is not only ineffective, its against our very principles. I have to have government permission, a falconry license, to pursue falconry. The dummy that showed up to my ranch to do my equipment and mew inspection had no idea what a mew was, no idea how it was supposed to be built and no idea what the equipment was. I had to show her, teach her how to pronounce the names of the items (Aylmeri jesses…), and explain to her what the items were used for. And this was the person that was going to decide if it was okay for me to trap and train wild raptors, or not. You think it would be different for tortoises? Who makes the instructions and test question? Will this person read a tortoise book and think tortoises get all their water from their food and sulcatas live in a desert and they should live on sand? Will they say babies do better outside and should be fed romaine, but not iceberg? Who will enforce these tortoises laws? Who will implement this program, and who will need to be hired to cover the job they used to do?

More government helps no one and does not help the animals. Government "protection" often results in further decimation or extinction of the animal species in question. Look at the alligators in Louisiana. Peregrin falcon everywhere. CA and NV desert tortoises. Having freedom means we have to accept that stupid people might do stupid things. Stupid people doing stupid things is not a reason to take liberty away from everyone. Take the liberty away from the stupid person and leave everyone else alone. Take the liberty away from the government. They have a dismal track record.

Hi Tom, If you don't like the government putting his nose where it shouldn't, im sure you would hate living in Canada or even worse Cuba! Usa is probably the place where people have the most liberty...

 

[theguy67]

I went back and read my reply again (I'm very tired today due to a long drive) and I realize I sounded far more optimistic than I intended. The "sure, worst case scenario...." was meant to contrast what I previously stated, but now I realize it seems a little dismissive. ( Like "so what if they take our tortoises?") I meant it as more of a warning for allowing increased regulation, I just didn't complete my thought.

I know we can all agree there is a need for education, the obviously tricky part is how to reach people before they make a purchase. A "certificate" for completing a course would be nice, but that's assuming everything else falls in line, which is unlikely considering how specialized and unknown to the public this hobby is.

 

[Tom]

Hi Tom, If you don't like the government putting his nose where it shouldn't, im sure you would hate living in Canada or even worse Cuba! Usa is probably the place where people have the most liberty...

No argument here. Seems to be a worsening problem all over the globe. I was just talking to an Australian friend about this today. She's not happy about the direction her country has gone, and she's not happy about the direction America now seems to be going.

 

[JoesMum]

And before this gets too heated, can I point out that people are arguing from a background of different legal landscapes and experience. The law and the government are different in the USA and Canada. In fact the law isn't the same all US states for many things.

I live in the UK, our legal experience and practice is different again... you only have to look at the UK's reaction to CITES: wild torts cannot be imported at all (unlike the US with Russians), all captive bred tortoises must be chipped and have paperwork and the old pre-CITES imports like my Joe can only be gifted and not sold as they have no paperwork.

Sulcatas are not common here, perhaps because they're difficult to keep in the UK climate which is less severe than Canada and perhaps because the adult tortoises weren't here pre-CITES.

Here in the UK the RSPCA has the legal right to intervene and prosecute. It applies to breeders of dogs and cats... and would apply to tort breeders too. Unfortunately, I suspect the RSPCA has little idea what poor tortoise care looks like and is unlikely to ever have acted or to act in the future.

 

[daniellenc]

And before this gets too heated, can I point out that people are arguing from a background of different legal landscapes and experience. The law and the government are different in the USA and Canada. In fact the law isn't the same all US states for many things.

I live in the UK, our legal experience and practice is different again... you only have to look at the UK's reaction to CITES: wild torts cannot be imported at all (unlike the US with Russians), all captive bred tortoises must be chipped and have paperwork and the old pre-CITES imports like my Joe can only be gifted and not sold as they have no paperwork.

Sulcatas are not common here, perhaps because they're difficult to keep in the UK climate which is less severe than Canada and perhaps because the adult tortoises weren't here pre-CITES.

Here in the UK the RSPCA has the legal right to intervene and prosecute. It applies to breeders of dogs and cats... and would apply to tort breeders too. Unfortunately, I suspect the RSPCA has little idea what poor tortoise care looks like and is unlikely to ever have acted or to act in the future.

Thank you!! This is why government agencies are NOT effective. Laws also don’t prevent neglect or stupidity. Adults are responsible for their own decisions good and bad. I mean humans can breed without homechecks and permits but I don’t see anyone arguing that lol. If you didn’t do your research and are having buyers regret sell the tort and start over. You have the power to make a different choice.

 

[Reptilony]

And before this gets too heated, can I point out that people are arguing from a background of different legal landscapes and experience. The law and the government are different in the USA and Canada. In fact the law isn't the same all US states for many things.

I live in the UK, our legal experience and practice is different again... you only have to look at the UK's reaction to CITES: wild torts cannot be imported at all (unlike the US with Russians), all captive bred tortoises must be chipped and have paperwork and the old pre-CITES imports like my Joe can only be gifted and not sold as they have no paperwork.

Sulcatas are not common here, perhaps because they're difficult to keep in the UK climate which is less severe than Canada and perhaps because the adult tortoises weren't here pre-CITES.

Here in the UK the RSPCA has the legal right to intervene and prosecute. It applies to breeders of dogs and cats... and would apply to tort breeders too. Unfortunately, I suspect the RSPCA has little idea what poor tortoise care looks like and is unlikely to ever have acted or to act in the future.

Sorry what is pre-CITES?

 

[JoesMum]

Sorry what is pre-CITES?

The time before the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) treaty took effect in 1975.

Joe was a wild import who was bought from a UK pet shop in 1970. These tortoises are not chipped or registered and nobody knows how many there are in the UK.

 

[daniellenc]

As in before CITES permits were required. Laws just encourage black market poachers, poor conditions, and more neglect and death. Look at prohibition and the regulation of marijuana. The “war” on drugs hasn’t stopped drug use and distribution. It has fueled violence, grew gangs, and incarcerated a bunch of pot heads costing our government and wasting our tax dollars in the billions every year in the US. Governments regulate for profit not our well being and definitely not a tortoises.